plark42 Posted May 3, 2006 Author Posted May 3, 2006 Perhaps I'll just stick to what I'm good at.. who knows.. maybe I'll learn rock anchors in TN
G-spotter Posted May 3, 2006 Posted May 3, 2006 there is most certainly very little mention of physics... in the Basic Course. and almost NOTHING about mathematics, cell biology, or Game theory!
KaskadskyjKozak Posted May 3, 2006 Posted May 3, 2006 take a 6 day rock or mtneering w/AAI, AAI, or Mtn Madness Exactly. Have you done this? Care to fill us in on how this went? My question about these courses is how much you can get out of a class in such a short period of time, and whether it is worth the cost.
RuMR Posted May 3, 2006 Posted May 3, 2006 especially when compared to just following good climbers for pitch after pitch and getting pushed by them on stuff....
RuMR Posted May 3, 2006 Posted May 3, 2006 (edited) ...alll for free of course...or maybe a beer or two... save your money, the mounties stink past a certain very basic level... Edited May 3, 2006 by RuMR
DirtyHarry Posted May 3, 2006 Posted May 3, 2006 Building anchors isn't rocket science. Its a skill for sure, but if you get the info and someone shows you how to do it, after that its just practice and you're better off practicing your self instead of taking some gay class.
RuMR Posted May 3, 2006 Posted May 3, 2006 (edited) ...emphasis on gay...and you have to pay for it to boot... Edited May 3, 2006 by RuMR
mattp Posted May 3, 2006 Posted May 3, 2006 If you went out with someone with equally little experience you could set toprope anchors off bolts and trees and practice setting gear and making anchors wherever. That's how I learned. wow. that would scare the crap out of me. I've read one too many S&R report on line or in Accidents in Mountaineering. That an understandable concern, KJK, but I bet if you look back at the old Accidents in North American Mountaineering you won't find that climbers who self-teach using books and other materials are any less prone to accidents than are those who have graduated form the Mountaineers basic or even Intermediate course. I'm not down on organized instruction as some seem to be here, but I do believe there are multiple paths to mountain climbing and I have not observed that my mountaineers-trained friends are any more competent than are those who were more self-taught. They have tended toward being more conservative in their approach to climbing, but this has not necessarily translated to safer that I have observed.
KaskadskyjKozak Posted May 3, 2006 Posted May 3, 2006 Building anchors isn't rocket science. Its a skill for sure, but if you get the info and someone shows you how to do it, after that its just practice and you're better off practicing your self instead of taking some gay class. well, yes, that's what I said - find someone you trust who has more experience. but you described a scenario where two beginners just teach themselves trial-and-error
RuMR Posted May 3, 2006 Posted May 3, 2006 ...actually, that is pretty much how i learned...at 17 to boot...it isn't rocket science, nor hard if you have any common sense...
mattp Posted May 3, 2006 Posted May 3, 2006 I don't see anybody suggesting "trial and error," KJK - at least not if you mean making the whole system up on their own and throwing themself off a cliff to see if it works. In my case, we got Mountaineering: the Freedom of the Hills and read it very carefully.
KaskadskyjKozak Posted May 3, 2006 Posted May 3, 2006 That an understandable concern, KJK it's just KK - Kaskadskyj Kozak. The registration page would not accept blank spaces. but I bet if you look back at the old Accidents in North American Mountaineering you won't find that climbers who self-teach using books and other materials are any less prone to accidents than are those who have graduated form the Mountaineers basic or even Intermediate course. Those reports do not go into whether someone took a course or not, in general. However, there is that phrase "exceeding abilities" that appears over and over, and there are certain kinds of mistakes that are mentioned over and over again, which make one wonder where the victim learned to do what they are doing... I'm not down on organized instruction as some seem to be here, but I do believe there are multiple paths to mountain climbing there are... who said otherwise? ...self-taught. Self-taught in this sport just strikes me as potentially very dangerous. They have tended toward being more conservative in their approach to climbing, but this has not necessarily translated to safer that I have observed. Well, that all depends on the individual, and the climb. More conservative - sometimes. More safe... very subjective.
KaskadskyjKozak Posted May 3, 2006 Posted May 3, 2006 ...actually, that is pretty much how i learned...at 17 to boot...it isn't rocket science, nor hard if you have any common sense... since when does a 17-year-old male have common sense?
RuMR Posted May 3, 2006 Posted May 3, 2006 are you kidding me??? You don't have the mental capacity to teach yourself climbing??? Good god, its not that difficult...
RuMR Posted May 3, 2006 Posted May 3, 2006 (edited) ...actually, that is pretty much how i learned...at 17 to boot...it isn't rocket science, nor hard if you have any common sense... since when does a 17-year-old male have common sense? common sense with regards to life? Maybe not, but with regards to the nuts-and-bolts of climbing...it ain't that hard for some one with an iq above double digits... Edited May 4, 2006 by RuMR
KaskadskyjKozak Posted May 3, 2006 Posted May 3, 2006 are you kidding me??? You don't have the mental capacity to teach yourself climbing??? Good god, its not that difficult... shoo, fly
miller Posted May 3, 2006 Posted May 3, 2006 take a 6 day rock or mtneering w/AAI, AAI, or Mtn Madness Exactly. Have you done this? Care to fill us in on how this went? My question about these courses is how much you can get out of a class in such a short period of time, and whether it is worth the cost. Whether or not these courses are worth the cost is wide open to debate - there seem to be quite a few satisfied clients out there. I think spending 6 days with an experienced guide can be very rewarding. Nothing against the folks at the Mountaineers, but I believe you will find an entirely different caliber of climber as your guide/instructor with Mountain Madness or the AAI's. However, a lot of what people take away from such courses depends on the level of fitness/experience they show up with. For example, I think if someone shows up in pretty poor shape they could be too tired to really focus on and absorb a lot of the technical information that is presented. Someone who is reasonably fit and eager to learn could learn quite a bit in those 6 days, and through hanging out with an experienced guide/climber for a week, learn tricks and tips that could take years to learn on their own.
DirtyHarry Posted May 3, 2006 Posted May 3, 2006 Building anchors isn't rocket science. Its a skill for sure, but if you get the info and someone shows you how to do it, after that its just practice and you're better off practicing your self instead of taking some gay class. well, yes, that's what I said - find someone you trust who has more experience. but you described a scenario where two beginners just teach themselves trial-and-error I was responding to your comment about the 6-day AAI classes being insufficient. Optimally you'd get some instruction from a real person whether in a short class or not. But its not like you couldn't figure out how to girth hitch a tree to go toproping without taking a Mounties class. What I had said was, that if you do that, one should do what they can to teach themselves and practice by placing pro and building anchors in a crack they can reach standing on the ground. Like Rudy, I never got any formal instruction. I followed my Dad on some climbs as a youth and learned the very basics and saw what good gear and a good anchor looked like, but I never did much actual gear placement. In high school and after I had one good buddy who had about the same experience as I did, and it was just read FOTH and go out and practice ourselves. Eventually, I was fortunate enough to climb with some folks who were a lot more experienced than me and refined my skills, but that was after I taught myself how to place gear and build anchors.
RuMR Posted May 3, 2006 Posted May 3, 2006 apparently, you need to take a class on how to use a fly swatter...its pretty difficult, and i hear that the exam at the end is ruthless...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted May 3, 2006 Posted May 3, 2006 it ain't that hard for some one with an iq above double digits... a qualification which you obviously do not meet
KaskadskyjKozak Posted May 3, 2006 Posted May 3, 2006 I think spending 6 days with an experienced guide can be very rewarding. Nothing against the folks at the Mountaineers, but I believe you will find an entirely different caliber of climber as your guide/instructor with Mountain Madness or the AAI's. However, a lot of what people take away from such courses depends on the level of fitness/experience they show up with. For example, I think if someone shows up in pretty poor shape they could be too tired to really focus on and absorb a lot of the technical information that is presented. Someone who is reasonably fit and eager to learn could learn quite a bit in those 6 days, and through hanging out with an experienced guide/climber for a week, learn tricks and tips that could take years to learn on their own. your point on fitness is well-made. I researched some of these guide services, and found a lot of stuff on the web from people complaining about the physical challenges, and having a miserable time.
KaskadskyjKozak Posted May 3, 2006 Posted May 3, 2006 I was responding to your comment about the 6-day AAI classes being insufficient. Optimally you'd get some instruction from a real person whether in a short class or not. But its not like you couldn't figure out how to girth hitch a tree to go toproping without taking a Mounties class. What I had said was, that if you do that, one should do what they can to teach themselves and practice by placing pro and building anchors in a crack they can reach standing on the ground. True, but you'd need to follow mattp's advice on reading FOTH carefully and applying it. If you girth hitch one runner around a tree, with a single (locking, I hope) 'biner, you might do just fine, but that's not redundant. Those water knots sure seem tight and solid, but they slip. you get my drift.
mattp Posted May 3, 2006 Posted May 3, 2006 I led non-technical climbs in the Sierra at age 13, bought Mountaineering: the freedom of the hills when I was 14, and by age 16 or 17 I was climbing grade IV's and V's in the Tetons and the Bugaboos. I bet if I had taken a Mountaineers course I wouldn't have dared do any of that. Again: I'm not down on getting good instruction. I'm simply saying the argument that it is essential is just plain wrong. And I'm quite happy I never ran into someone who told me I wasn't safe to go climbing in the Tetons when none of us had passed any formal test. I'm sure glad you didn't call my parents to warn them of the danger, either. We had a blast!
Recommended Posts