Weak-Ass One Liner Accumulation Thread.

[JayB]

So there's been this huge discussion of how to improve on how to combine the advantages of the cordalette and the sliding-X into a single anchor going on at RC.com. There's some interesting ideas going on over there - but I just don't think I'll be able to plow through all 50-odd pages of it anytime soon.

 

50 Odd Pages Here: Link

 

Somewhere in the conversation someone mentioned something about an "equalette" that supposedly did a way better job of equalizing the forces on anchor pieces than either the sliding-X or the cordalette - anyone got a diagram of this thing?

 

On the routes I climb it's pretty easy to get solid anchors in, but there's a better, more efficient set-up for equalizing several pieces of marginal mank that someone knows about, I'd be interested in taking a look.

 

Looks like there's a couple of candidates in JosephH's gallery:

 

 

[Cobra_Commander]

that doesn't look complicated at all

[tomtom]

I'll stick to clipping draws to each bolt and lowering off.

[G-spotter]

belays are for sissies, drop acid and free solo

[Blake]

If flipping leas, use the rope to make a bunny ears figure 8, add an additional pieces on clove hitch if you must. If you aren't flipping leads, get a new climbing partner.

[willstrickland]

I read a fair amount of it. Take away for me was simple:

 

1. Cordolette does not equalize worth a shit.

2. "Shock loading" on an improved sliding X (i.e. w/ limiter knots), a much touted concern, is not really much of a concern in real world situations.

3. People love to wank about with gear, but I need a simple system un-fuck-up-able even when exhausted.

 

But I knew this already. So 50 pages of wanking later, I learned only that you do NOT want to be behind one of these parties on a long route as they attempt to remember, then construct, one of these 12 biner, eight sling, super double mondo equal cordowanksystems at each belay.

 

Two stainless fatties? Bowline on a bight, aka atomic clip. Two lockers, one knot in the rope and you're done. Good enough when there's two bomber pieces. Yes, it has a downside, but not one you're likely to encounter.

[willstrickland]

Blake, you catchin' any browns down there?

[Blake]

only got out once, nothing really nice to show for it. I'm going back out into the countryside this weekend, rod will be along again. Spring temps and long days got you itchin to get some more time on the water Will?

[Cobra_Commander]

Clearly if you use a cordolette you are going to die. Those AMGA guys have been dropping like flies!

[mattp]

I read a fair amount of it. Take away for me was simple:

 

1. Cordolette does not equalize worth a shit.

2. "Shock loading" on an improved sliding X (i.e. w/ limiter knots), a much touted concern, is not really much of a concern in real world situations.

3. People love to wank about with gear, but I need a simple system un-fuck-up-able even when exhausted.

 

But I knew this already. So 50 pages of wanking later, I learned only that you do NOT want to be behind one of these parties on a long route as they attempt to remember, then construct, one of these 12 biner, eight sling, super double mondo equal cordowanksystems at each belay.

 

Two stainless fatties? Bowline on a bight, aka atomic clip. Two lockers, one knot in the rope and you're done. Good enough when there's two bomber pieces. Yes, it has a downside, but not one you're likely to encounter.

 

[JayB]

Yeah, yeah, yeah - people love to do the technowank things, and most of the time you hardly have to worry about any of this shit - but every once in a while something new pops up that seems like a genuine improvement - and I'm sure people talked endless amounts of shit about the cordalette when someone first proposed it.

 

A while ago Mitch Merriman posted an anchor setup that seemed like a better solution than the Atomic Clip for the lead-swapping bolt anchor scenario that I've used since then. Figure-eight on a bight with a long loop clipped to one biner, with one of the strands of rope that emerges from the bottom of the knot (the "rope" side that leads to your partner) clove hitched to the other biner. The other strand leads to the knot on your harness. Fast, easy, effective.

 

Some of the shit posted on that thread looked like an overengineered cluster-fuck, but there are times when it's worth it to me to invest some extra time in equalizing an anchor, and if there's a better way to do that - e.g. simpler and more effective - then it's worth asking the question.

 

Just out of curiosity Will - what's your strategy when you've got so set an anchor and all you've got is several shitty placements. I usually end up with some kind of a hybrid deal where I equallize a couple of shitty pieces on a tied off sliding-X and clip one "leg" of the cordalette to the power point between the shitty pieces, then do what I need to do to feel good about the other "leg," etc - until I feel confident that I can trust my life and my partner's life to the anchor. Seems to work, but if there's a better system out there, I'll use it.

[mattp]

OK Jay, I agree. Learning is good and I commend anybody who actually pays attention and thinks about this stuff. But Will is right in a fundamental sense: people who worry about these complexities generally/most-often/when-they-are-in-front-of-me are a pain in the ass and are no safer than the guy who clips the damn nut and hangs a quickdraw on the pin.

[Squid]

"Hey dude, you're on belay. But don't fall, ok?"

[JayB]

Yeah Matt- pretty much never a problem on routes that get any kind of traffic, but that's not what I had in mind. More like the early/late season alpine routes where everything is iced up or covered in snow, or you are just way the hell off route in crappy rock and you want to get a trustworthy anchor in the minimum amount of time because it's getting dark, stormy, or whatever. Most of the time you can get away with a less than sound anchor because the odds of someone uncorking a factor-2 fall on your shit anchor are pretty low, but all things being equal, I'd rather not roll the dice or spend any more time than I have to get a good anchor in.

 

Not stuff you need to use very often, but nice to have in your toolkit when you do.

[Mos_Chillin]

lower off the chains.

[Mos_Chillin]

...just kidding, as you were...

[Gary_Yngve]

Climb with a Euro and they'll pull out a double sling, girth hitch a hanger, and clip it to the other hanger, then clip a locker on the sliding X.

[Figger_Eight]

"Cordelettes are gay."

- Jim Donini

 

[willstrickland]

Jay I do pretty much what you do.

 

My larger point is, beyond some combo of improved sliding X's, you hit a steep curve of diminishing returns. Simple, fast, tough to screw-up, expandable/adaptable to any number of pieces close together or spread out. What else does a brother need?

 

When those cats using their insanely intricate systems get benighted, two pitches from the top, because they were fucking with the anchor an extra 10minutes at each belay...how safe are they then?

[JosephH]

Well, that's not necessarily a bad short take by Will. For anything but a two point anchor with even legs skip the cordalette - Largo's testing shows it's doesn't perform at all regardless of endorsement by AMGA. And it was John who was pushing it in the beginning in his first anchors book, so when he turns on it you may want to check it out. Those pics are ones I did up to basically diss a proposed rig, though even the rigs I don't like sometimes have something worth paying attention to. I also do think from the time Largo got the thread kicked into turbo with his challenge to now there's been a lot of interesting ground covered. John got what he wanted out of the deal and his new compendium is basically done and we aren't so much looking for the ultimate rig at this point as exploring various solution sets of forces, components, compromises, and options. I'm basically in it to up the library of components and ideas for the next time I end up dealt a really sh#tty hand putting up something new. Admittedly not for everyone, but if you're going to check it out I'd highly recommend starting at the beginning, biting the bullet, and just plow through it. You'll learn what Largo likes in the cordalette's place for three and four point anchors anyway...

[Cobra_Commander]

My AMGA comment was more to illustrate the sheer volume of use the cordolette has seen, (and taken big falls) yet one doesn't hear about anchors failing all over the world because of it. It was not suggesting an AMGA endorsement, simply that it has seen heavy use w/o consequence.

 

Perhaps there is a stronger method of linking pieces together. However there is something to be said for a very simple and clean power point that can be clipped and cleaned quickly, and w/o error.

 

Of course it is important to be open to new data, as you suggest.

[JosephH]

Again, it's worth a read if you do a lot of trad or alpine.

 

"a very simple and clean power point that can be clipped and cleaned quickly, and w/o error"

 

And it's still that for two side-by-side bolts or pieces of pro. In any other configuration you are simply loading a single point with the other points as successive backups. The topic of how often anchors fail is in that thread as well...

[Cobra_Commander]

I realize all of that as I have read the thread. I agree with Matt that I would still run away if I saw some of those rube goldberg anchors used.

 

to add: I can't believe people continue to bring up that Trango alpine equalizer or similar home-brew rigs. Rigging for Rescue did plenty of testing of this setup and it just does not do anything close to equalization, and it's damn complicated. They even substituted the biners for pulleys, still no good. But here it is, yet again.

 

[JosephH]

No doubt - I would too. I'm personally more interested in the thread in a big wall context and, as I said, for any poor anchor situations encounter on new routes (if I ever manage to get back to projecting).

 

EDIT: As for the data on the Trango's AE rig, if you know where there is any you should post it up as folks would love to see it...

[Cobra_Commander]

I have not seen it online but was given a presentation of it at a Rigging for Rescue seminar. The data may have been presented at ITRS at some point. I'll see if I can find it.

 

The Trango device mimics what was called the "Load Distributing Anchor" used by a number of rescue units and featured in "On Rope" the classic caver's vertical techniques book. It looks like it is doing something when you shift the load around, but in reality, it's not doing much according to R for R, who usually is fairly cautious in making these statements.