quote by Jimmy Carter

[JayB]

So those babies dressed themselves in the suicide gear? Yeah - no difference.

 

The reality is that the Palestinians have brought about their own misery and ruin by means of the infitidah. Instead of sending a message that both their material conditions and their aspirations for statehood will be doomed if they adopt a strategy that does not involve cultivating children whose primary object in life is to serve as explosive delivery devices, the chorus of idiots in the West has encouraged them on this suicidal path to oblivion. Subidizing an unrepentant Hamas would just push them one-step closer to implosion and oblivion.

 

Wait a minute. I thought the beginning of the end for the Palestines was when they're country was given away? But i'm sure that had nothing to do with it. They should have simply rolled over and said, here you go, we didn't really need it anyway. Now can you please govern us fairly, and you know maybe in 50 years gives us a tiny chunk, we'd really appreciate that. Just ask the american indians how well diplomacy worked while they were being taken over and funneled onto reservations.

 

Yeah - because unceasing millitary conflict against an opponent with a staggering millitary superiority, that was increasing with every passing year, would have definitely worked for them in the end.

 

In the case of the Palestinians, do a bit of digging and take a look at every measure of prosperity and well-being that you can find on the Palestinians pre-and post-Intifada. I don't think their decline since the onset of the Intifada is a coincidence, but I'll leave you to make your own judgement.

 

were getting into a chicken egg problem. If they're country hadn't been summarily given away there would be no need for the intifada. And with a goal of gaining and independant country, I somehow doubt political pressure would have been effective. The intifada may have caused a significant decrease in their standards of living, but they are (or at least were) moving in the direction of forming an independant state once again. Without the threat of violece they have absolutely no leverage over Israel.

 

I don't really condone violence in any form except as an absolute last resort solution to an untennable solution. Though from their perspective. Once you've been invaded, that could easily seem untennable and last resort.

 

Except in this case the egg was hatched 40 years before the onset of the Intifadah, after Israel decimated every Army that had attacked them numerous times, and it should have been clear that using force was a doomed excerise in futility. The fact that they got "understanding" and "sympathy" in exchange for suicide bombings only accelerated their ruin. With friends like the Palestinians have in the West...

[willstrickland]

Jay is auditioning be the next Victor Davis Hanson. Hang in there Jay, you write better wingnuttia than that Jonah Goldberg clown. Maybe the LA Times has column space for you too. Fit right in there with Boot and Goldberg. If that fails, perhaps the good Rev. at Wash Times has a spot for ya?

 

What? Ad hominem? But of course, that's how ya'll play the game right?

[archenemy]

Will we ever fire Condi the Incompetent?

 

February is Black History Month

[rbw1966]

"pop relativism"? Jay, don't you think you are guilty of that yourself when you start imposing your value structure on the palestinians? I do not agree with their views, but I believe the suicide bombers do not view any of their victims as 'innocent civilians'.

 

The fact is, the US tends to engage in a lot of 'pop relativism' when it comes to foreign policy.

[selkirk]

So those babies dressed themselves in the suicide gear? Yeah - no difference.

 

The reality is that the Palestinians have brought about their own misery and ruin by means of the infitidah. Instead of sending a message that both their material conditions and their aspirations for statehood will be doomed if they adopt a strategy that does not involve cultivating children whose primary object in life is to serve as explosive delivery devices, the chorus of idiots in the West has encouraged them on this suicidal path to oblivion. Subidizing an unrepentant Hamas would just push them one-step closer to implosion and oblivion.

 

Wait a minute. I thought the beginning of the end for the Palestines was when they're country was given away? But i'm sure that had nothing to do with it. They should have simply rolled over and said, here you go, we didn't really need it anyway. Now can you please govern us fairly, and you know maybe in 50 years gives us a tiny chunk, we'd really appreciate that. Just ask the american indians how well diplomacy worked while they were being taken over and funneled onto reservations.

 

Yeah - because unceasing millitary conflict against an opponent with a staggering millitary superiority, that was increasing with every passing year, would have definitely worked for them in the end.

 

In the case of the Palestinians, do a bit of digging and take a look at every measure of prosperity and well-being that you can find on the Palestinians pre-and post-Intifada. I don't think their decline since the onset of the Intifada is a coincidence, but I'll leave you to make your own judgement.

 

were getting into a chicken egg problem. If they're country hadn't been summarily given away there would be no need for the intifada. And with a goal of gaining and independant country, I somehow doubt political pressure would have been effective. The intifada may have caused a significant decrease in their standards of living, but they are (or at least were) moving in the direction of forming an independant state once again. Without the threat of violece they have absolutely no leverage over Israel.

 

I don't really condone violence in any form except as an absolute last resort solution to an untennable solution. Though from their perspective. Once you've been invaded, that could easily seem untennable and last resort.

 

Except in this case the egg was hatched 40 years before the onset of the Intifadah, after Israel decimated every Army that had attacked them numerous times, and it should have been clear that using force was a doomed excerise in futility. The fact that they got "understanding" and "sympathy" in exchange for suicide bombings only accelerated their ruin. With friends like the Palestinians have in the West...

 

Guerilla warfare and terrorism have nothing to do with military might or how effective Israel has been at defending itself from outside attack. Once external force options failed, then I imagine that is when the intifada probably really took off.

 

And increased repression in response to their attacks only breeds suicide bombers faster, the vehicle for terrorism has never been overwhelming victory, but to create a state so repressive that it's own citizens revolt.

 

The only solutions are either A) kill all, and I do mean ALL of the Palestinians or B) recognize that they're will be an ongoing threat and start working towards a tenable compromise.

[underworld]

but he DID say 'mounting invasions'

[tomtom]

Riddle me this, chief: This "child-of-hamas" (I didn't name the file, btw) seems to be posing with a US manufactured M-16, and wearing clothes with english language writing. Exactly where is this "child-of-hamas" living, Idaho?

 

You don't get out much, do you.

[JayB]

"pop relativism"? Jay, don't you think you are guilty of that yourself when you start imposing your value structure on the palestinians? I do not agree with their views, but I believe the suicide bombers do not view any of their victims as 'innocent civilians'.

 

The fact is, the US tends to engage in a lot of 'pop relativism' when it comes to foreign policy.

 

I wouldn't call myself a relativist, as I think that any society which embraces the values that are epitomized by the little explosive-delivery-vehicles in training represents a kind of barbarism which stretches the definition of what it means to be human, and will ultimately bring about the collapse and ruin of any group of people foolish or insane enough to embrace them. Even if they were to succeed in securing a state by such means, the embrace and institutional cultivation of such values would/will leave them ruined, impoverished, and despised.

 

They may claim consider grandmas, toddlers, teenagers, pregant women - whoever - to be legitimate targets, but their behavior when their own civilians get blown to pieces by a missile sent to kill one of their millitants suggests that they don't actually believe this in practice. If they actually believed this they wouldn't make such a point of displaying or drawing attention to the toddlers, women, etc that were killed as part of the attack in order to cultivate sympathy and outrage.

 

And besides, even if someone claims that he has every right to help himself to your wife, you are not obliged to agree with this proposition on the grounds that while you don't agree with his point of view, you recognize that your own framework is just one of many, and all have an equal claim to legitimacy, etc, etc, etc - unless you are in fact a relativist of the highest order. I'm not, and I suspect that no one else on the board is either, which makes the "We're in no position to judge them, man.." vibe that you come across all the more puzzling. I think that this attitude is only tenable until you are on the receiving end of the consequences of such sublime, airy, non-judgementalism, which explains why the babies wrapped in slaughtering clothes aren't such a big deal to the people in the "all perspectives are, like, you know, equally valid and stuff, man.." contingent. I suspect that people will abandon this posture when and if one of these lads happens to punch his "72 virgins" ticket anywhere near them or their loved ones.

[JayB]

Jay is auditioning be the next Victor Davis Hanson. Hang in there Jay, you write better wingnuttia than that Jonah Goldberg clown. Maybe the LA Times has column space for you too. Fit right in there with Boot and Goldberg. If that fails, perhaps the good Rev. at Wash Times has a spot for ya?

 

What? Ad hominem? But of course, that's how ya'll play the game right?

 

You unravelled the Sino-CIA-fake-Hamas-suicide-baby plot yet? I think you'll find the secret hidden in the flabby-chicken virus paper that was discussed at length yesterday.

[JayB]

So those babies dressed themselves in the suicide gear? Yeah - no difference.

 

The reality is that the Palestinians have brought about their own misery and ruin by means of the infitidah. Instead of sending a message that both their material conditions and their aspirations for statehood will be doomed if they adopt a strategy that does not involve cultivating children whose primary object in life is to serve as explosive delivery devices, the chorus of idiots in the West has encouraged them on this suicidal path to oblivion. Subidizing an unrepentant Hamas would just push them one-step closer to implosion and oblivion.

 

Wait a minute. I thought the beginning of the end for the Palestines was when they're country was given away? But i'm sure that had nothing to do with it. They should have simply rolled over and said, here you go, we didn't really need it anyway. Now can you please govern us fairly, and you know maybe in 50 years gives us a tiny chunk, we'd really appreciate that. Just ask the american indians how well diplomacy worked while they were being taken over and funneled onto reservations.

 

Yeah - because unceasing millitary conflict against an opponent with a staggering millitary superiority, that was increasing with every passing year, would have definitely worked for them in the end.

 

In the case of the Palestinians, do a bit of digging and take a look at every measure of prosperity and well-being that you can find on the Palestinians pre-and post-Intifada. I don't think their decline since the onset of the Intifada is a coincidence, but I'll leave you to make your own judgement.

 

were getting into a chicken egg problem. If they're country hadn't been summarily given away there would be no need for the intifada. And with a goal of gaining and independant country, I somehow doubt political pressure would have been effective. The intifada may have caused a significant decrease in their standards of living, but they are (or at least were) moving in the direction of forming an independant state once again. Without the threat of violece they have absolutely no leverage over Israel.

 

I don't really condone violence in any form except as an absolute last resort solution to an untennable solution. Though from their perspective. Once you've been invaded, that could easily seem untennable and last resort.

 

Except in this case the egg was hatched 40 years before the onset of the Intifadah, after Israel decimated every Army that had attacked them numerous times, and it should have been clear that using force was a doomed excerise in futility. The fact that they got "understanding" and "sympathy" in exchange for suicide bombings only accelerated their ruin. With friends like the Palestinians have in the West...

 

Guerilla warfare and terrorism have nothing to do with military might or how effective Israel has been at defending itself from outside attack. Once external force options failed, then I imagine that is when the intifada probably really took off.

 

And increased repression in response to their attacks only breeds suicide bombers faster, the vehicle for terrorism has never been overwhelming victory, but to create a state so repressive that it's own citizens revolt.

 

The only solutions are either A) kill all, and I do mean ALL of the Palestinians or B) recognize that they're will be an ongoing threat and start working towards a tenable compromise.

 

I think that the last staggering defeat that their erstwhile saviors suffered was during the Yom Kippur War in '73, fully fourteen years before the onset of the 1st intifutilah.

 

Given that the only tangible result of the guerilla strategy that the Palestinian leadership's considerable strategic foresight and acumen lead them to adopt, has been to create a state so miserable, lawless, and ruined that their own citizens have been reduced to international beggary - it's fair to say that their plan has failed them in every possible way, and left Israel relatively unscathed, it's astonishing to see anyone argue that it's been an effective strategy for them. With respect to compromise, see if you can find that term anywhere in the Hamas charter. Excerpts below:

 

"The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! "

 

" There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. The initiatives, proposals and International Conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility. The Palestinian people are too noble to have their future, their right and their destiny submitted to a vain game."

 

Plenty more where that came from.

[selkirk]

No progress towards forming an independant state whatsoever.

 

linky linky

 

It's certainly coming closer than the yom kippur war.

 

Though this may not actually fullfill the indifada, having an independant state run by palestinians, and not being actively supressed by the Israeli's should do a good job drying up the supply of individuals willing to blow themselves up.

[Gary_Yngve]

Or at least we could have a change in pace and have Palestinians blow up Palestinians.

[selkirk]

Which would be ok solution as well.

[underworld]

don't they already do that.... suicide bomber also blows himself up

[Weekend_Climberz]

Personally, I don't see why it's our problem. Britain is the country that divided up the Empire after WWII. Let those guys deal with it.

[murraysovereign]

While it's fairly easy to say "cut them off unless they commit to this, that, or the other thing", there's a very real risk in doing so, in that it would force Hamas to look elsewhere for their financial support, and in so doing drive them further into the embrace of Syria, Iran, and Saudi Arabia, and greatly impair your own ability to exercise any influence or exert any pressure toward reform. The threat of cutting off their support is more valuable as a threat than as an implemented policy. Once you actual do it, you've not only lost your biggest bargaining chip, but you've also driven the Palestinians further into the orbit of the very powers you're trying to defeat.

 

And remember, a good part of the argument for sending troops into Iraq (twice) was because "sanctions don't work." So that's all changed now?

[underworld]

ha... mounting invasions.

 

... i get it