W Posted December 6, 2001 Posted December 6, 2001 PP, I wanted to be more certain of your views in order that I might give you a clearer answer.These are tough questions we are asking. You're right, most are subject to contingencies.I think in some element the style of the first ascent has some merit, and yet from that point on each subsequent ascent has the onus upon them to attempt to do the climb with the least amount of destruction, if in fact the climb began as a nail up. Proponents of bolts will say that the damage stops there...but it is still damage, nonetheless. On Dana's Arch, we get to enjoy both ugly pin scars AND permanent fixtures. You and I both have raised the point now, that perhaps some things just don't need to get climbed, or at least, lead climbed, if destroying the rock is the only way to get up it. Peter, I am not an aid climbing advocate who thinks every seam ought to be beaten to hell, anymore than I think every face with holds needs a line of bolts. Aid climbers contriving new lines are just as guilty. The only place I have ever carried a bolt kit is on big walls which have established fixed gear that has a chance of becoming un-fixed and hence might need replacing. If one chooses to climb an El Cap nail up, one then by extension is choosing to damage the rock with pitons. It's a good-news/bad-news thing: sooner or later the route will go hammerless (depending on fixed gear), but the rock is damaged in the process. I'm not prepared to pass judgement entirely on which form of damage, pin scars or bolts, is worse to look at. However, from a climbing standpoint, for me it is a little more disconcerting to see man-made objects permanently fixed to the rock. Moreover, bolts are all too often placed to "force" routes that do not follow natural features. Royal Robbins declined to finish the Tangerine Trip because it blanked out high up and he didn't want to drill. On the other hand, he mysteriously found the justification to complete Tis-sa-ack on Half Dome which involved long, long bolt ladders. I suppose that my viewpoint has its origins in my gravitation from day one toward alpine climbing, where the tendency is to follow crack systems. Or used to be. Bolts used to be considered a last resort. I think they still should be, at least in the mountains. But I'm not going to play bolt cop. I never carry bolts on alpine routes and never will. I carry minimal pitons on big alpine routes and use them infrequently, but many routes in the Rockies, for example, are virtually impossible to protect without them. I'm only more inclined to use them on seldom climbed routes, but even they remain my last resort. Even when climbing a nailing wall, I consider all of it training for alpine climbing, and hence I nail as little as I am capable. In the mountains, if I come across something I can't climb without bolts, I'll fail willingly.The answer, Peter, to these questions probably comes in people being vigilant enough to keep asking them. there is no fixed answer. This will continue the (what I hope to be) growing spirit of bolting and pitoning only as last resorts. the grey area lies in something you bring up- that one person's "last resort" is another person's cakewalk. Short of having rigid standards and rules for everyone to live by, which no one will ever totally embrace (not climbers!), there is no satisfying solution. Neither bolts or pitons can be totally eliminated, but the issue begs the question be asked of everyone- does this potential "route" really have to become a route? Does it really have to be led free? If it has gone hammerless, do I really have to climb it if I cannot do the same? At least in asking these questions, perhaps everyone will strive not only to do their best, but to respect the medium- the rock- that is the sustenance and arena for many of our adventures.
pope Posted December 6, 2001 Posted December 6, 2001 Fragile Peter, You've a profound grasp of the obvious. There, I said something nice 'bout Petey. When one says, "Rock is more aesthetic in its natural state than it is with a rash of bolts,"...well, you're quite right to say that it is a subjective stance. As are a few of my other preferences: cold beer, big tits, and the absence of hippy/pseudo-logicians. The aesthetics of bolting is not an arguable issue....but neither is the aesthetics of chopping buckets or building gondolas in a national park. I'm not pretending that every piece of granite deserves national park status, but permanently altering rock walls with holes and bolts (and pin scars) does step on the toes of many people, and it forever reduces the dimensions of challenge that a wall may offer. For me, it diminishes the chances that I'll ever feel like I'm playing fairly in what was once a wilderness game. For the record, I've never defended myself by claiming I'm "basically a nice guy." I once responded to a post that said something to the effect of, "Pope, that's the nicest thing I've ever heard you say." My reply was something like, "Thanks. You should tune in more frequently." Slappy, beating the shit out a crack by pounding pins in and out makes it ugly. But uglier than a line of bolts? I'm not sure how to convince you of what seems obvious to me, but we're talking aesthetics. You'll meet guys who think that nailing a crack improves it, creating nice locks and great nut placements, as long as the visual effect is minimized. Who knows, everybody has an opinion of what's ugly/damaging, and of what's aesthetic/pretty. Let me try to understand you....let's see, do you like fat chicks? Does your kind of girl have hairy legs and a green onion stuck in her teeth? Yes? Then I can see how you think bolts are sexy.
ScottP Posted December 6, 2001 Author Posted December 6, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Cpt.Caveman: Caveman hits ScottPeePee in the melon with club. Scott I was referring to the TC fiasco you created. I climbed city park before and thought the bolts were fine. Why do you ask if you already know Beyatch Oh, I see. Well, I didn't really defame anybody. It was pretty much just an airing of my opinion that the TC bolt ladder should have been left alone. I can see why you got your undies in a bunch, though... being that you like the new one better than the original. "Why do you ask if you already know Beyatch"I'm not sure what you're referring to.
Cpt.Caveman Posted December 6, 2001 Posted December 6, 2001 I never did the route after Mikey put in da new stuff. However I really thik yes it was your opinion but you are a punk ass bitch to spray all over the internet like you did. Hows about even providing the info to Jeff Smoots site and all. What da fu?! That is what I thought was arrogant and stupid. You forget when you are in the wrong quickly. I pee on you. [ 12-05-2001: Message edited by: Cpt.Caveman ]
ScottP Posted December 6, 2001 Author Posted December 6, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Cpt.Caveman: I never did the route after Mikey put in da new stuff. However I really thik yes it was your opinion but you are a punk ass bitch to spray all over the internet like you did. Hows about even providing the info to Jeff Smoots site and all. What da fu?! You forget when you are in the wrong quickly. I pee on you. You are a hypocrite to be talking about "spraying all over the Internet". Look at your signal to noise ratio. You defame people every day for sport and then jump on me for stating my opinion. I provided the info to Smoot's site for the same reason Mike did to rec.climbing and this site:Fucked up bolts on TC needed to be advertised. You're conclusion jumping, based on incomplete info.
Cpt.Caveman Posted December 6, 2001 Posted December 6, 2001 Your boring to argue with. Yes I am a hypocrite like everyone in the world. It's just your turn today Later chub
ScottP Posted December 6, 2001 Author Posted December 6, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Cpt.Caveman: Your boring to argue with. Yes I am a hypocrite like everyone in the world. It's just your turn today Later chub Hey Lucy. Sorry if I hurt your feelings.
ScottP Posted December 6, 2001 Author Posted December 6, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Cpt.Caveman: I am krushed No, what you are is a crybaby.
Cpt.Caveman Posted December 6, 2001 Posted December 6, 2001 What I am is an Angry Climber. Scott you are sooo cool. By the way. Why do you bother to send me private messages of topos to a crag and no directions? I dont care what route you did. Just what route I am gonna do.
slaphappy Posted December 6, 2001 Posted December 6, 2001 Whatever Pope, although I do like similar characteristics in the bolts I clip and the women I choose to be with. I like them strong, and trustworthy. I prefer tight ones to sloppy loose ones, as well as deep to shallow ones. I'm not really keen of old ones, but if they are in good shape than they may have to do. (I must admit I do use protection whenever available.) Unlike you I can move beyond the common physical attributes and find beauty in diversity.
MysticNacho Posted December 6, 2001 Posted December 6, 2001 I like how no matter what the topic, caveman changes the subject and somehow starts an online slander-fest. The original topic continues, but the ol' captain already has a different conversation going filled with one sentence posts. Wuts up wit dat cap'n?!
Peter_Puget Posted December 6, 2001 Posted December 6, 2001 pope Rope Lead Member # 410 posted 08-09-2001 09:22 PM --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Hey SlapAss,I've always been a nice guy, and you know it! I get sick of people justifying their bolt drilling by countering that, "Hey, trad climbers are just a bunch of narrow-minded assholes. They're so macho, so arrogant. "F" them and their ethics, man." It's not about ego, kids. It's about preservation. It's about escaping the tame, overly engineered metropolitan areas and finding some clean rock. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Posts: 400 | Registered: Feb 2001 | IP: Logged From memory I think I was pretty close. You are great for my ego And don't forget to vote for me! Peter Puget "Poster of the Year"
MysticNacho Posted December 6, 2001 Posted December 6, 2001 Tuna Taco?! Thats it. This is where I draw the line. I've heard "Nacho", "Mystic", "Nystic Macho", "Mystic Macho", "Fishstick Nacho", and even "Mystic-fishtaco". "Mystic Gerbil" and "Mystic Hamster" are understandable, but pushing it. BUT "TUNA TACO"!?!?!?!?!? That's just unnecessary. That's just downright mean. The others are clever, but Tuna Taco? Better recognize!
Peter_Puget Posted December 6, 2001 Posted December 6, 2001 W – All we can do is attempt to take everyone’s experiences and preferences into account while climbing. As a group we must be willing to accept some actions we don’t approve of and expect other to give us slack at times.
ScottP Posted December 6, 2001 Author Posted December 6, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Cpt.Caveman: What I am is an Angry Climber. Scott you are sooo cool. By the way. Why do you bother to send me private messages of topos to a crag and no directions? I dont care what route you did. Just what route I am gonna do. Lucy, you're an idiot. It wasn't a climbing topo, it was a topo map. You know, like with roads and trails and those elevation lines that are really close together that show where the steep stuff is.I sent it to you because late last spring I told you I would tell you where it was, bonehead.Just trying to be nice.A big mistake on my part, thinking you would appreciate the attempt. [ 12-05-2001: Message edited by: ScottP ]
ScottP Posted December 6, 2001 Author Posted December 6, 2001 quote: Originally posted by MysticNacho: I like how no matter what the topic, caveman changes the subject and somehow starts an online slander-fest. The original topic continues, but the ol' captain already has a different conversation going filled with one sentence posts. Funny how that works. Me thinks Lucy's got some issues...
Lambone Posted December 6, 2001 Posted December 6, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Cpt.Caveman: What I am is an Angry Climber. Scott you are sooo cool. By the way. Why do you bother to send me private messages of topos to a crag and no directions? I dont care what route you did. Just what route I am gonna do. Yeah, that reminds me of the time you e-mailed me a list of your "first ascents" up at the Pearly Gates... No directions in that e-mail you freak.
Cpt.Caveman Posted December 6, 2001 Posted December 6, 2001 I just got my new bosch drill. I am gonna put in a full length route up the upper wall. All bolted. Then I will be hailed as cool by all right
chucK Posted December 6, 2001 Posted December 6, 2001 Hey Cavedude, Post that topo of Scott's (Secret Crag????) to the group. You oughta!!!! That would get him. Chuck
Peter_Puget Posted December 6, 2001 Posted December 6, 2001 Imagine a smooth slab split by a seam. Now imagine that this seam is climbable at 5.12 but that no “clean” protection can be placed. Now imagine that the seam can be aided using destructive techniques. W, can I accurately assume that you would advocate that the crack get nailed until scars develop that are sufficient to enable the route to be free climbed? Would it make a difference how much the scaring reduced the grade or how large the scars became? I would assume your answer to this would be the amount of scaring or reduction in grade would not matter.(Side note: some advocates of the “Yosemite School” as defined by you have abused this by creatively scarring cracks for freeclimbing) As you feel this would contradict the “way things have evolved in the valley for decades.” Do you think that someone can hold a contrary view without being a person looking to “stoke their ego on their FFA.” I certainly can imagine many people holding such a contrary view without even desiring to put up an FFA. You make no argument as to why your perceived Valley Ethic should be followed. For those who don’t know the first 5.10 valley routes had rap placed bolts. In the 80s didn’t Yosemite stalwart Ron Kauk place bolts on rappel? In the nineties the Yosemite Free Climbs guidebook by Don Reid has a cover shot showing a retro bolted trad climb. I wasn’t thinking of Wheat thin as it was ascended long after 5.10 had become common place, but your reference to it reveals your knowledge of the Yosemite Tradition. It was “tradition” to use fixed ropes at one time. I am not advocating any of those things. What I am saying is that Yosemite Ethic can be evaluated several ways. You pick one that appeals to you, but that is not to say that it appeals or is even visible to everyone. Even assuming that I did accept the Yosemite tradition as being a valid concept, why should we choose it over the traditions worked out at other areas? Boulder? East Germany? The Verdon? Why not have two traditions as in England – one for gritstone and another for limestone? Your first argument that the route would be scarred despite the bolting is of course accurate in hindsight but it might not have been so evident at the time of the bolting. To judge actions by the end of a series of contingencies following them is a bit unfair. My take is that the subsequent nailers are guilty of far worse behavior. Is it also true that you have no first hand knowledge of the state of the route at the time it was bolted? To me that would be important in judging the actions of the bolters although given your apparently rigid stance with you version of the “Yosemite ethic” I understand why it wouldn’t matter to you. It is this reliance on the Yosemite tradition that pushes you away the inchoate (and potentially more fruitful) argument that you cursorily described. As far as people currently nailing free routes. I have seen someone nailing the bottom of #10 clipping the bolts as back up. Last winter a friend of mine said he saw someone nailing Iron Horse. Just this past summer someone was nailing Bwana Dick. I think that there are very few hard and fast rules in climbing. To me letting a crack get scarred to avoid a bolt itself can be an abomination. Whenever I hear someone advocating a rigid code of behavior based on their view of tradition I am reminded of a phrase Thomas Mann said in reference to the NAZIs : the manure pile of myth. It is often merely a flimsy veil to obscure the fact that is really being said is “I want it that way because I want it that way.” It also changes the debate by putting any dissenters into the position of being unethical by virtue of their dissent. My poor fragile Pope! You became so mad at me and I don’t recall saying anything as blatantly insulting to you as “Idiot” Play nice or go home. By the way by merely reducing the debate to one of aesthetics you reduce it to no more than an argument over what color is best! Rumor has it that Mondrian use to sit with his back to outdoor views because he preferred the man made over nature! Sidebar for those who read the fragile poster thread: Since I never read your PMs I was not following your request! Thus your speculation regarding why I stopped sending you PMs was simply wrong. I bring this up because you seem to have no problem assessing the bravery and motivations of bolters (most of whom you have never met) Why would you be any more accurate with them than with me? Thanks for all the PMs! I appreciate your support and want to assure you all that I would be a noble and worthy "Poster of the Year"
Cpt.Caveman Posted December 6, 2001 Posted December 6, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Lambone: Yeah, that reminds me of the time you e-mailed me a list of your "first ascents" up at the Pearly Gates... No directions in that e-mail you freak. Not true I sent the diros and that was not my list but Viktor Kramars. He was nice enough to give it to me. [ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: Cpt.Caveman ]
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