the climber's death

[knotzen]

If you knew you would die climbing, would you continue to climb? Would living your passion be worth the cost of dying prematurely?

 

I'm thinking of this in terms of the many people I've known who have died climbing. I wonder, if they knew they would die earlier than they otherwise might, if they would have continued doing it? Or would they choose to live a longer life (not taking into account the possibility of dying early by other causes), foregoing their passion for climbing and being in the alpine environment. Maybe find some replacement activity or passion to pursue.

 

I wonder if, supposing some sort of consciousness, they would have had regrets, and if they had known they would die climbing, might have chosen to give that up in order to continue living, to be with their families, their girlfriends, whatever else their future might have been. (I'm thinking specifically of a friend of mine who died on a winter climb of Guye Peak several years ago. He had so much else going for him; the tragedy is that he lost all of that for a climb. And yet, climbing was one of his passions, and what brought him and his girlfriend together.)

 

I'm also thinking of how people often say, "At least s/he died doing something s/he loved." I wonder if the deceased would have thought about it that way.

 

Quite possibly. I guess that gets to the root of being willing to accept the risks of climbing.

 

On the other hand, I think most of believe we won't be the one to die climbing, so we don't necessarily think about it in such black-and-white, either/or terms.

[knotzen]

I want to clarify that I am not criticizing the choices of those who have died climbing. I climb, and I don't expect to die climbing (of course). I understand the passion involved.

 

I guess I'm going through my annual review period of how a person weighs that passion with possible outcomes.

[ChrisT]

deep thoughts...

 

I thought you were going to Smith this weekend?

[roboboy]

climb mostly safely only, it's possible

[roboboy]

that way the risk taken is no more than doing anything else in life, like driving to work or walking out to get the mail

[Stonehead]

We’re talking about certainty and probability. No one knows with certainty his date of departure but I suspect one realizes the very real possibility given risky undertakings. Maybe it’s more about knowing the likely manner of death rather than the timing.

 

One thing is given: that all of us will die…in the mountains, on the roads, in a foreign country, or at home. How much time do I have and what do I do with that time? This notion of dying prematurely is often voiced by the survivors. Can you really say that the person died before his time? Certainly, he or she may have lived to realize more experiences and to be a physical part of this interconnected reality of ours. But, who’s to say, that this isn’t just as it should be?

 

I suppose it would be one thing if a person knew with some certainty that he would get an aneurysm or lose his LASIK eyesight, or whatever. In that case, it would seem to be a death wish but it’s still a personal choice. Are we to focus on the passion of life or the seeming injustice of a life cut short?

 

But again, are we unrealistically elevating this notion of passion, of zeal for life, above all other values? That notion of balance comes into play here. There are two major forces in our lives—fear and desire. One can rule over the other with its consequent effects on your life. These forces are amoral although their consequences can have a moral effect. Or, maybe I may hate my fear as it is weakness so that I strive to overcome it. So it necessarily need not lead me away from something just my desire may not force an attraction towards something.

 

Ok, you can call this fluff or bs but those are my thoughts on the whole matter…not really answers, only a continuation. Wasn't it Descartes who said, "I question, therefore I am"?

[TeleRoss]

Dude, when your time is up your time is up...there's no such thing as a "life cut short"...it was just that persons time to go.

[ashw_justin]

A life not worth living is also dying prematurely. Climbing is the best part of many people's lives: it makes them alive. I have known some who would probably rather die than not pursue their life's passion.

 

On the other hand, if climbing is just amusement for you, like tennis, well then you should probably just stick to tennis.

[Stonehead]

Are you a Calvinist? Because that certainly sounds similar to predestination. Or, maybe you're an atheist, that biology is destiny, if our genes allow us the potential for long life then it's a very real possibility given it's not shortened by our experiences. In any event, so much certainty…

[Stonehead]

A life not worth living is also dying prematurely. Climbing is the best part of many people's lives: it makes them alive. I have known some who would probably rather die than not pursue their life's passion.

 

I've heard this many times, that climbing is the shizzle; no, not really the shizzle but the pursuit of it is some lofty, noble endeavor. I wonder though if it's not really an indicator of something else. What is it called...? Transvaluation?? Where values are reversed based on their framing? Maybe the impulse is more base than that. That rather than a noble influence, it's more something like hatred. Of fear, of weakness, of anonymity, of inferiority...

 

The goal is the same. To make us more than we are or ordinarily would be. I suppose you could call that impulse Promethean in which case there is a price to be paid.

[roboboy]

I climb for exercise, scenery and to be in a natural environment. Pretty lame, huh ? I'm sure I'm the only one.

[Stonehead]

I climb for exercise, scenery and to be in a natural environment. Pretty lame, huh ? I'm sure I'm the only one.

 

I'm sure there are as many motivations as there are different people.

 

But, sometime don't you think that there are better ways of exercise? Does it ever seem masochistic? It really takes a ego sometimes to put yourself through some of the 'epics'.

 

Aesthetics. Yeah...

[knotzen]

Dude, when your time is up your time is up...there's no such thing as a "life cut short"...it was just that persons time to go.

That line of thinking has never resonated with me. I just can't picture some god or "force" sitting up in heaven, or wherever, with a list, and a date and time of death next to every individual's name.

 

I think of the human being as having an average lifespan, just like a dog, a whale, or any other creature. Sometimes a creature dies "early" (meaning before their body dies from the effects of aging), by being in the wrong place at the wrong time (getting struck by a car), etc., or by disease, causing the body to malfunction and die early, or by killing themselves.

 

Despite the oft-quoted belief that you are more likely to die driving to a climb than on the climb itself, I've always thought of climbing as putting your body in places and situations where there is inherently more danger than most places humans hang out. Same with paragliding, BASE jumping, etc. We have developed tools to keep our bodies safe, for the most part, but still, the human body is like an eggshell against rock and ice.

 

I guess that driving or riding in a car is about the same. Most of us have just determined that the risks outweigh the benefits.

 

I guess that's what it boils down to with climbing, too. For most of us the benefits outweigh the risks. The risk of dying from the activity is fairly remote, and the risk is worth what is gained.

[knotzen]

By the time it took me to compose that post, most of what I was saying had already been said.

[roboboy]

It really takes a ego sometimes to put yourself through some of the 'epics'

Life is basically one epic after another, in many different areas. I don't consider an epic to be an epic if you survive it and aren't hurt. After awhile you get used to epics, they are routine. A sign of old age, I'm sure.

[knotzen]

deep thoughts...

 

I thought you were going to Smith this weekend?

I actually went, but I was feeling crappy, so I came home early. Driving 700 miles in 24 hours--more fun than any person should be allowed to have!

 

Actually, with all the semis I passed going up and down 97, I probably was at quite a bit more risk for my life and limbs than if I was climbing the whole time.

[roboboy]

but I was feeling crappy

And I don't think anyone should ever worry about bailing on any climbing, at any time, with anyone. It's a difficult activity and whatever a person's own reasons for not wanting to climb are, they are valid, even if the reasons are never stated.

[wfinley]

Having been involved in an accident on Denali that lead to the death of a close friend I make it a point to always write families who have suffered loss in the Alaska range. This past spring 2 twin brothers were descending Denali Pass and fell to their deaths. They were in their 50s and from Ohio - a state not really known for its mountains. Thus the family really couldn't relate to the mountain experience and the desire to climb regardless of the element of risk. Anyways - I wrote them back in June and just yesterday I received a letter back from one of the family. She wrote "The families, including myself, are surely struggling."

 

It was very depressing and hard to read and made me think a lot about climbing and risk. It's easy to sit around with a bunch of climbers or skiers and say "Yaaa... you could die - but it's worth it dude." However - it's not so easy to explain to the father of a deceased friend why you chose to do a route that involved much more risk as opposed to the simple walk up. It's not so easy to explain the rational to a wife who lost her husband on a mountain she's never seen and has no real desire to see.

 

That said - I certainly haven't given up climbing and find that I am pushing myself a bit more each year. Perhaps it is, as Stonehead said, a Promethean impulse. If I went to a shrink I'm sure he would agree. However my current theory is that after pushing myself on a route I reach a point where I become fully aware of the juxtaposition climbers face when they must weigh their own life and the ones they love against a congruent world which simply doesn't care. In this light I see a meaning in climbing (albeit a dangerous way to reach an enlightenment of sorts): It is only during adverse conditions that we can truly see and appreciate the things we love in life.

[roboboy]

And I don't think anyone should ever worry about bailing on any climbing

So I guess I won't be climbing with Mike Layton (sorry, I just couldn't resist getting back to that).

[Geek_the_Greek]

Interesting topic, indeed - the age-old thread, or at least as old as climbing itself. To me a lot of this sounds like justification.

 

Like the idea that you are just as likely to die driving as climbing, so one might as well climb. I don't believe this, and in my experience you don't have to be climbing for very long before the list of your peers who died climbing (or skiing, etc.) is longer than the list of your peers who died in other means (car accidents, illnesses, etc.).

 

Here's a question to test how much you enjoy climbing: given the choice of doing some other form of recreation (jogging, board games, partying, whatever - let's leave out sex, since that's in its own category) with someone you really like, or climbing with someone you really don't like, how often would you pick the climbing? This may be an indication of whether it's the climbing you're after, or maybe it's just recreating with good people. No right answers here, just an interesting exercise.

[cj001f]

On a tangent:

 

Why do people say "at least they died doing something they loved"? Does it matter if you die prematurely from a heart attack, a car crash, or a climbing accident? You are still dead. Do they think that because a person was doing something they liked when they died that at the end they weren't petrified and fighting with every ounce of their being to live? Dead is dead, nothing will change that. What you did in life is what matters.

[wfinley]

To me a lot of this sounds like justification.

 

My ex GF was very quick to always point out to me how egocentric climbing was. There is no real way to justify the risk... you do it for yourself that's all there is to it. Many words can be used to explain the why to others - but in the end we do it for ourself... She always referred to mountaineering as a socially accepted form of drug abuse.

 

Why do people say "at least they died doing something they loved"? Does it matter if you die prematurely from a heart attack, a car crash, or a climbing accident?

 

I suppose the rational behind this is that many of us take comfort knowing that friends of ours died doing what he or she loved as opposed to, say dying because some drunk redneck plowed into him or her at a stop sign. I think anyone who climbs a lot is prepared to deal with the possibility of death. However should death (to one of our climbing friends) occur in some other manner (like a car crash) then it would be much harder to accept.

[Fairweather]

If a dream

Meant anything to me

Would it seem

A bold reality?

 

If I knew

My hand of fate,

Would I do-

Or hesitate?

 

 

--Delmar Fadden

Died on The Emmons Glacier in 1936 while decending from the summit of Rainier after completing the first solo winter ascent the mountain.

 

Taken from The Challenge of Rainier by Dee Molenaar

[archenemy]

I agree with your girlfriend.

 

Some drug addicts will not stop doing drugs even though they know there is a good chance of dying prematurely as a result of their activity. Same with climbing for some folks.

 

I liked that article someone posted a while back about climbers, jailbirds, high-risk behavior cases. I could completely relate. I love climbing, but I also recognize that it is the risk/challenge/fear itself I am addicted to.

 

Of course, I also like being outside, getting exercise, buying gear I don't need, etc.

[Ed_Seedhouse]

If I knew I was going to die climbing, I'd stop climbing so as to never die. Of course, avoiding stairs might be difficult. Is getting into bed climbing?