Martial Law

[TREETOAD]

Just the type of thinking that one would expect to be reflected on a network like fox. The social safety net is there to protect all society from all of the terrible things that poverty brings. Starvation, despair, disease etc. for those that, for whatever reason find themselves in that state of suffering. The well off are protected from the desparate crimes committed by people that have lost hope of ever becoming part of the great American dream. The social fabric of western civilization is a thin veneer, and the events in the south are just symptoms are a far greater malaise. Just hope that nothing on a huge national scale happens before the social safety net has been repaired properly because what is under it is a seathing wound that has been festering under tax cuts and racism for decades. Mother Nature has just pealed back the scab and exposed man for the weakling that he is.

So there.

[Stonehead]

Some video of "looting"

Check out the police caught on camera.

[Gary_Yngve]

Is it looting if you haven't eaten in days and you steal food? Is it looting if your wife and kids have been laying on hard concrete at the convention center and you take a mattress from the hotel nearby?

 

I agree completely. And furthermore, I think it could be legit to loot electronics and jewelry if the intent is to barter them for food/water/shelter.

[Stonehead]

Troops begin combat operations in New Orleans

 

“I never thought that at a National Guardsman I would be shot at by other Americans,” said Spc. Philip Baccus of the 527th Engineer Battalion. “And I never thought I’d have to carry a rifle when on a hurricane relief mission. This is a disgrace.”

 

Spc. Cliff Ferguson of the 527th Engineer Battalion pointed out that he knows there are plenty of decent people in New Orleans, but he said it is hard to stay motivated considering the circumstances.

 

“This is making a lot of us think about not reenlisting.” Ferguson said. “You have to think about whether it is worth risking your neck for someone who will turn around and shoot at you. We didn’t come here to fight a war. We came here to help.”

 

Meanwhile... New Orleans: Police kill army contractors

 

Police shot eight people carrying guns on a New Orleans bridge on Sunday, killing five or six, a deputy chief said.

 

A spokesperson for the army corps of engineers said the victims were contractors on their way to repair a canal.

[Gary_Yngve]

I think everyone's confused right now whether the cops were firing at contractors or at folks who were firing at contractors and if any of the contractors were hit. Certainly the text above that you quoted is poorly written and confusing at best.

[Gary_Yngve]

My parents told me that Bush was asked if it's ok to take food/water from abandoned stores, and his response was that he has no tolerance for looting whatsoever.

 

[Stonehead]

I think everyone's confused right now whether the cops were firing at contractors or at folks who were firing at contractors and if any of the contractors were hit. Certainly the text above that you quoted is poorly written and confusing at best.

 

Five dead 'were army workers'

 

At least five people shot dead by police as they walked across a New Orleans bridge yesterday were contractors working for the US Defence department, according to a report by The Associated Press.

 

A spokesman for the Army Corps of Engineers said the victims were contractors on their way to repair a canal, the new agency said, quoting a defence Department spokesman.

[Ducknut]

CNN is reporting that the dead gunmen were indeed people shooting at the contractors not the contractors.

[ScottP]

http://www.snopes.com/photos/katrina/looters.asp

"A Salon article on the photographs by Aaron Kinney suggests the captions were a result of a combination of contexual and stylistic differences:

Jack Stokes, AP's director of media relations, confirmed today that [photographer Dave] Martin says he witnessed the people in his images looting a grocery store. "He saw the person go into the shop and take the goods," Stokes said, "and that's why he wrote 'looting' in the caption."

 

Regarding the AFP/Getty "finding" photo by [photographer Chris] Graythen, Getty spokeswoman Bridget Russel said, "This is obviously a big tragedy down there, so we're being careful with how we credit these photos." Russel said that Graythen had discussed the image in question with his editor and that if Graythen didn't witness the two people in the image in the act of looting, then he couldn't say they were looting.

The photographer who took the Getty/AFP picture, Chris Graythen, also posted the reasons behind his caption:

I wrote the caption about the two people who 'found' the items. I believed in my opinion, that they did simply find them, and not 'looted' them in the definition of the word. The people were swimming in chest deep water, and there were other people in the water, both white and black. I looked for the best picture. there were a million items floating in the water — we were right near a grocery store that had 5+ feet of water in it. it had no doors. the water was moving, and the stuff was floating away. These people were not ducking into a store and busting down windows to get electronics. They picked up bread and cokes that were floating in the water. They would have floated away anyhow."

[markinore]

In reference to looting, remember who said, "Stuff happens"?

 

Remember who said, "While you can't condone looting, you can understand how people might react after decades of repression"?

 

 

 

 

All together now: DONALD RUMSFELD

[Gary_Yngve]

I take it that's a quote referring to Iraq?

[archenemy]

Men that rape women in these type of situations are THE MOST DISPICABLE criminals of all, and should be shot with enough injury to insure they will not carry on with that activity.

 

I am curious why you qualified your statement with "in these type of situations". In what situations is it permissible to rape a woman?

[Greta]

I think he meant that rapists are dispicable, regardless of the situation, with which Im sure we all agree. However, under these circumstances, they are quite a bit more dispicable. Mmm-kay?

[archenemy]

Actually, no, its not okay. I think what is unspoken here is the underlying acceptance in our society (perhaps not of this individual, but the statement reflects what we are all taught) that there are situations where it is acceptable to rape a woman (if she is wearing a revealing outfit, if she is drunk, if she is "asking for it", etc.).

And although the conditions in New Orleans are awful, I don't know if it is so simple to say that these woman are suffering more than an eleven year old who is raped by her father, a jogger who is raped by 13 boys, or a comatose patient who is raped by a caretaker. How does one measure such pain?

 

What is interesting to me about this setting, however, is that people are acting in ways that I don't think many of us could have forseen. Why is that? I have read results from anonymous surveys that show that when asked, "If you could commit rape and get away with it, would you?", one-third of the repondants answered yes. Scary enough, but I would have never thought that someone would take the opportunity in the aftermath of a natural disaster. Is it our own ignorance of human nature that is shocking us and making us see this situation as more dispicable than other instances of people attacking others?

 

I am just curious what it is about people that allows them to prey on those who are unable to defend themselves. I have read a fair number of posts that seem to blame the people stuck in N.O. for their situation.

I also wonder why some folks are quick to say that people are responsible for their own safety and thus should not rely on the government to protect them or "save" them. I think folks may be forgetting that half the population cannot even protect themselves from the other half; and that they also did not forsee the spectre of rape in the aftermath of a devastating storm.

 

Just some random, barely-connected thoughts and a few questions...

[cj001f]

Actually, no, its not okay. I think what is unspoken here is the underlying acceptance in our society (perhaps not of this individual, but the statement reflects what we are all taught) that there are situations where it is acceptable to rape a woman

There are situations where it's "acceptable" for someone to rape a man as well.

[Dechristo]

I am just curious what it is about people that allows them to prey on those who are unable to defend themselves.

Survival of the fittest.

 

What? Are looking for an explanation of reprobative behavior interlaced with hope redemptive to humanity?

[Recycled]

"Keeping Order" sounds slightly quaint and sinister by turns, but it obviously matters. While I agree that people should be able to do what they need to survive within reason, there is a certain population that will use blackouts, floods, earthquakes, etc. to go wild. They probably don't have a whole lot to lose and are just itching to use any advantageous situation. How do you deal with those people while not violating the rights of people simply trying to survive and who still respect the rights of others?

 

The fact is, there are a lot of violent thuggish people out there that are kept "in line" by policing and limited opportunities for thuggary. They will think nothing of rape or murder (if given the opportunity without consequences). Perhaps its time to reconsider your disaster survival plans:

 

Survival plan #1: Keep loaded weapons and spare ammo handy, and then get what you want from the sheeple. Food, water, sex can be had in abundance.

 

Survival plan #2: Store up spare food, water, supplies. Be self-sufficient and then wait for those operating under survival plan #1 to break your door down and rape/kill you.

 

Seems like the best strategy (to me at least) would be Survival Plan #2 + weapons + coordinated plannning by immediate neighbors. Of course, if you have weapons, you need to be mentally ready to use them and ready to mentally process friend, foe or someone that just needs a bit of help.

 

This line of thought gets very disturbing very fast!

[archenemy]

It does indeed. And impractical. I work in a corporate office. I am not allowed to bring a sidearm with me to work. If I have no warning, as in the case of a devastating earthquake, a plane flying into my building, or close up tsunami or some crazy shit like that, I am caught downtown w/o the benefits of survival plan #1 or #2. Not that I am paranoid or anything, but I just don't think its practical for most people to be prepared for this shit on a daily basis; yet, we seem to expect them to be.

I don't know where I am going with this, I just am trying to put myself in these people's place and it doesn't seem like any of our pat answers or solutions are really viable. Thoughts?

[Dechristo]

Whet the wit, it's always at hand and the tool in short supply in a disaster... as evidenced currently.

 

Unless, you're

[Recycled]

I'm pretty lucky. I work at home (as does my wife), I can walk to my kid's school, I have plenty of survival skills (life maintenance as well as heavy equipment operation, shelter construction and such). The closest building over 15 storeys is about 50 miles away.

 

I do have meetings in downtown Seattle every couple weeks and I would be pretty much screwed if something happened then. I would try like hell to get north of the ship canal and start banging on friend's doors, since I grew up there. Going solo and fast in those circumstances is the luxury of being male, big and ugly. If I were female, I would imagine having to immediately group together and start making defensive plans and coming up with a stategy for getting to a safe place as fast as possible. That's probably happened quite a lot in New Orleans. Sucks, but could be a reality if things really turn to shit, you're downtown and night hits. Think how much Seattle gets screwed up with a foot of snow!

 

So long sukkas! I'm off to Chamonix for two weeks.

[Kitergal]

Hey..did my buddy who lives there ever get back to you?? Was he any help?

[Recycled]

Marie, I just got the reponse you originally forwarded. Thanks! I decided to rent a car and hit the Alps from all sides. I'll mostly car camp and stay at hostels. If the weather turns crappy, I'll just get a cheap flight to Paris and hang until the weather clears. Woohoo!

[cj001f]

I'll mostly car camp

[Kitergal]

Wow...sorry he wasn't more help!! You should look him up when you get there....he'll for sures hook ya up with a place to stay...at least for a couple of nights. He lives in a freak'in mansion....he prob wouldn't even know you guys were there!! Did ya keep his name? If not..I'll PM ya it.

[Greta]

Actually, no, its not okay.

Hmmm. What I meant was DO YOU UNDERSTAND? Nobody here thinks its acceptable under any circumstances to rape anyone, man or woman.

 

I think what is unspoken here is....

You are looking for something to spray about, which is why we are all here, I suppose, but lose the clichets por favor, we've all heard em.

 

Our society does not condone this behavior in any way. That said, there are quite a few fucked up people in this country, and people pull this shit every day. What makes getting raped on high ground with mice and crickets all around any worse than under any other circumstances? And quit with the "she was asking for it- referring to what she was wearing or how she was acting. Nobody except the clinically insane pull that card anymore. Take some responsibility for once and brace yourself for what you know is about to become a very fucked up situation. As someone said above, keep the guns and ammo handy, or just get the fuck out of town already.