The Great Waterproof/Breathable Debate!

[bonathanjarrett]

I would like to solicit opinions on the merits of waterproof/breathable fabrics from my fellow climbers. Lay it out: Gore-Tex, competing laminates, DWR, umbrellas. What do people think? Have we been swindled into believing that Gore-Tex and the like are the pinnacle of weather protection?

[Bogen]

Just say no to gore-tex. Take a light set of rain gear, or cheap nylon and treat generously with nikwax before leaving.

 

Gore-tex is indeed waterproof when it's raining, and is breathable when it isn't raining. It's not breathable enough to be useful during aerobic activity. Goretex is heavy as well, and for the extra weight you may as well stick to a proper layering system, and the flexibility it affords.

 

The new ultralight wpb fabric is interesting, but seems expensive for something that's likely gonna be torn to shreds the first time I slide down a scree slope.

[rockguy]

Gore-tex works just fine IMHO; it’s just that most people don’t use it correctly. During intense aerobic activity one is probably sweating at a rate greater than can be efficiently vented though the material; this is why you’ll find almost all Gore-tex (or other PTFE laminate) garments constructed with pit-zips or other zippered vents. If you’re sweating your ass off, open the vents or take off the garment.

 

To state that Gore-tex is “heavy” is too much of a generalization—there are many styles of Gore-tex, some of which are particularly light (e.g., the “stretch” Gore-tex that Patagonia uses in their “Stretch Element” line of clothing is particularly nice; and, incidentally, more breathable than the XCR style Gore-tex).

 

My new favorite material is the eVent—waterproof, light, durable, and the most breathable laminate of any I’ve tried to date. I’ve found this material to vent particularly well even during moderate aerobic activity.

 

And as for Bogen’s observation that wpb fabric will be torn to shreds after sliding down a scree slope; I can only say “true”, but if you’re sliding down scree slopes on a regular basis, you’ve got more serious things to things to worry about than whether or not your clothing’s going to rip.

 

Anyways, for me, I’d prefer a nice light eVent or Gore-tex jacket to one slathered in nixwax.

Edited April 6, 2005 by rockguy

[Bogen]

And as for Bogen’s observation that wpb fabric will be torn to shreds after sliding down a scree slope; I can only say “true”, but if you’re sliding down scree slopes on a regular basis, you’ve got more serious things to things to worry about than whether or not your clothing’s going to rip.

 

 

Most likely true.

 

I love scree skiing, it's my favorite part.

 

Has anyone had any experience with this eVent or XCR fabrics in regards to real durability?

 

If you have to take the jacket off when its not raining, why not take a lighter, designated rain jacket?

[slothrop]

I'm using Gore-tex wrong and that's my problem? The only time I'd want to wear an expensive laminated garment is when it's steadily raining, because I want the waterproofness. But I'm not just going to stand around when it starts raining--I'm going to keep hiking. If it's warm enough to be raining, then I'm going to be sweating as I hike. If I open the vents, then the rain water goes in the big holes I just created. If Gore-tex can't keep up, then there's plenty of room for improvement.

 

But the majority of Gore-tex garments are probably sold to people who never do anything more strenuous in them than walk to Starbucks on a cloudy day.

 

Maybe eVent is better... I've never tried it. What jackets are made with it?

[rockguy]

Has anyone had any experience with this eVent or XCR fabrics in regards to real durability?

 

If you have to take the jacket off when it’s not raining, why not take a lighter, designated rain jacket?

 

In my experience XCR is quite durable (e.g., tried to skewer myself with an ice tool a couple of years ago; the XCR fabric did not puncture when, with significant force, the tool’s pick hit my jacket). The eVent looks less durable, but so far I’ve had no problems with it. I have a tent constructed of eVent fabric--in some significant storms, the fabric has proven bomber.

 

If I were going to take a “lighter, designated rain jacket” I’d use this one:

http://promountainsports.com/graphics/id-event-rainjacket.jpg

 

Integral Designs

eVENT Rain Jacket

Weight: 9.5 oz (270 g)

Packed Size: 4" x 8" x 2"

[robert]

Fortunately the vents on my Arc’Teryx are in locations where the rain is not that likely to fall, i.e. under my arms. The pit zips on my jacket are open almost all of the time and I have never gotten significantly wet through them. I say significantly meaning more wet than I would have gotten with sweat had the vents been closed. Last Sunday I was hiking Silver Mountain and it was snowing and blowing pretty hard. I had the pit zips, chest zips and even the main zipper open (with the storm flap closed with the Velcro dots holding it together). Some snow blew in, but very little and I stayed quite dry. I would say not much worse that I would have been had it not been snowing and I was just hiking in my MTS shirt. I agree that there is work to be done on laminates, but they are better for me than true rainwear that doesn’t breathe or no rainwear.

 

On the durability front, my wife destroyed a pair of Arc’Teryx XCR pants glissading down Mt. St. Helens on firm snow. The snow was hard, but I think that they should have done a bit better. REI took them back and we got another pair, but she won’t make that mistake again. I have never had any trouble with the durability of my jacket.

[Bill_Simpkins]

Hard shells are a total pain. You are always unzipping this, unzipping that, putting this in the pack, taking that out of the pack. Plus, they are deadly when the sun comes out. They are too hot when it's warm. I would say they more people suffer more from heat related stresses on the body then wetness/coldness related. Ever be at Camp Muir when people are returning fromt he summit? They are half draped and sweaty in gortex. They have headaches from sweating like crazy,hot as hell and dehydrated.

Miserable.

When I go out in softshells, the only thing for my legs, are ON my legs the whole time. Saves a pound in the pack and room to boot. I can wear them to work, go rock climbing that night, lounge arund the house, then climb a mountain or go snowboarding any time of year.

If it rains, I usually am ok, else I put on a peice of plastic or just go in my T-shirt.

 

Bogen, the gortex I've used handled scree just fine. I never questioned the durability of it. However I didn't wear hard shells rock climbing much because its too warm and bulky and doesn't stretch. So it never had the same "testing" as my softshells.

[PaulB]

...the XCR fabric did not puncture...

Gore-Tex is not a fabric! It is a polytetraflouroethylene (PTFE) membrane (similar to Teflon) which is laminated to a fabric. Ideally, the properties of the chosen fabric will complement the properties of the chosen membrane (XCR, Paclite, Windstopper, etc). For example, while the Paclite membrane is supposed to be more breathable than XCR, if they are both laminated to a relatively non-breathable fabric, then the advantages of the Paclite will be mostly negated. Obviously, a designer needs to compromise between fabric properties such as durability, breathabililty, stretch, hand, etc. to get the product they want. Chances are good that something more durable will be less breathable, so it won't matter if it uses Paclite or XCR.

 

As someone mentioned, it is primarily the face fabric and it's DWR finish that do most of the work of keeping the water out. If you closely read the label on any Gore-Tex garment, the caveat for performance is that you keep the outer fabric clean and maintain the DWR finish.

[Alpine_Tom]

My wife got me a new, rather expensive, North Face "Summit Series" Gore-tex parka for Christmas this year.

So, I took this new gore-tex parka, which was perfectly clean, never washed, not even worn very often, and wore it while I was out working in the yard in the rain a couple weeks ago. I didn't break a sweat, I was just planting a couple of rose bushes and that sort of thing. And, in half an hour or so, my shirt under the Gore-Tex was noticably damp. Not from sweat, but from rain percolating through.

 

One of the arguments I've heard for buying Gore-tex stuff is that Gore requires manufacturers to adhere to a high standard of manufacture. So far two of the velcro patches have come unstitched, and one of the loops that hold the shell to the liner has broken. And, this from occasional use, maybe once a week -- no hikes, no hard use, nothing more strenuous than walking the dog.

 

Personally, I think that gore-tex is a myth, in the same category as Sasquatch, and using red markers around the edges of your CDs to improve the sound. If you want to Believe, be my guest.

[slothrop]

robert, you were hiking in the snow, not the rain, right? Snow's much less likely to drip into your big zip holes, but rain will follow the folds and curves into those holes. It did when I went hiking in my Gore-tex jacket the day before Easter in the rain up to Melakwa Lake. I was totally soaked, despite my Gore-tex, from either sweat or rain leaking in. Whatever the cause, the Gore-tex jacket did not keep me dry in a modest rain shower while hiking in mid-30-degree weather. I'm unimpressed.

 

On a three-day ski trip in clear, cold weather, I wore softshells top and bottom. My friends wore hardshells and were constantly taking them off and putting them on. Back at the hut, everyone else was wringing out their shirts, while I just kept all my clothes on from the day's tour because they were still dry. This is why I only wear a hardshell, and grudgingly at that, if it's really raining.

 

If it's snowing, I wear a softshell jacket. If it's cold or windy, but otherwise clear, or even if it might drizzle, I wear a softshell jacket. If I get wet, I will dry out after it stops raining. If I get wet in Gore-tex, I'll stay wet until I do an hour of sunbathing.

 

I guess the moral of the story is that rain will get you wet unless you cover yourself with a rubber tarp and don't move. Gore-tex doesn't solve the problem and it's an easy target of criticism because it's so over-marketed.

[Geek_the_Greek]

This debate always comes down to 3 things for me:

-I get hot far more often than I get cold (breathability is important). I only get cold when I'm not moving, and getting cold is a good reason to start moving again (unless belaying, cooking, etc.)

-if I'm moving and it's not raining (or snowing hard with really wet flakes) I don't need a jacket

-If I'm moving and it's raining, I will get wet. Period. If I wear a shell it will be from sweat, and if I don't it will be from rain. Ok, maybe if the wind is howling like a mofo and it's pouring out, like horizontal rain (which quickly turns to snow) I won't be sweating, but that's kind of rare.

 

So the only reason to wear non-breathables (rain gear) would be if you're planning on doing a lot of sitting around. Aid climbing and car camping come to mind. Waterproof breathables never breathe very well when you need them to, but they do block the rain, as well as that rain flakes/snow drops stuff we get a lot of around here. But yeah - if it's raining out and you're working hard, you'll get wet. Line your pack with plastic bags, or use a good pack cover, so that when you stop you'll at least have dry stuff.

I dont' think soft shells do anything that a windshell and light fleece won't do, but they sure look cool and are comfortable.

[MATT_B]

I think a lot of people, especially clothing manufacturers have put gore-text (and all the other waterproof/breathables) up on a golden pedistool. The thought is that it can do everything. Well, it can't do everything. The way I see it you have a spectrum of fabrics with completely waterproof but no breathability on one end. On the other end you have completely beathable and not at all waterproof. Some where in the middle you will find your waterproof/breathable fabrics. Some will be closer to one end of the spectrom than others. Some will cover more of the spectrum than others. Nothing will do it all. I think the modern waterproof/breathable's are the best compramise for me. If it is raining they do a prety good job of keeping the wetness out. I will still get damp but not usually too bad. 20 minutes later when the rain stops and the wind kicks up I can keep the jacket on to block the wind and it will breath. I don't expect the jacket to keep me comfortable, thats my job. If I'm too hot take the jacket off. If I'm too cold, put something else on. If it starts raining, batton down the haches. Put the hood up, zip everthing up and make sure the storm flaps are all fastened down. If I'm still uncomfortable, too bad. Deal with it and climb on.

[cj001f]

If I open the vents, then the rain water goes in the big holes I just created.

How the hell does rain go up your armpits?

[slothrop]

Ever raise your arm while hiking? Water rolls down the sleeve into the armpit. My pit zips start and end well away from the protected area directly under my arm.

[meganerd]

If it rains at all significantly, you're going to get wet. I find the fear of water of most outdoor enthusiests hilarious. The challenge is not to keep dry, but to keep warm. My strategy is to always wear as little as possible that will keep me warm, while hiking in the rain. In addition to that, I always keep a full extra set of clothes in my backpack that I can put on when I stop (or else I'll freeze to death). The reason I started doing this was because, on most days, I completely soak myself in sweat even when it's perfectly nice out. When I would stop, I would freeze.

 

That's not to say I don't use raincoats, just very rarely while I'm actually hiking. I usually use a really light low end waterproof breathable jacket from REI (elements fabric I think). I'm certainly not advertizing that, I got it for free. It works fine if I'm just standing around, and on the rare occasion that I do wear it while hiking, it's to keep me warm and out of the wind, knowing that I'll get soaked underneath it.

[cj001f]

Ever raise your arm while hiking? Water rolls down the sleeve into the armpit. My pit zips start and end well away from the protected area directly under my arm.

Mine do as well. I rarely open them all the way. And I don´t find myself raising my arms often.

[cj001f]

That's not to say I don't use raincoats, just very rarely while I'm actually hiking.

There´s a difference between a PNW ¨rain¨ and rain. When it´s cold and coming down in windwiped sheets, dry equals warm.

[jmace]

I wish I had room to carry an extra set of clothes

[robert]

Slothrop,

 

It was snow on the way up, rain for a good portion of the decent. Hardshell is not the perfect answer, but it works in some situations. I like my Gore-Tex, but I was wearing softshell pants and they were great. I didn't wear my softshell jacket because it is warmer than my G-tex and my pants. I will have to add a softshell jacket to my "to buy" list. Maybe it will be the answer, but for now my hardshell works when I need it.

[JoshK]

I can't say enough how much an ultralight umbrella kicks ass. As people have mentioned, staying dry in rain is really difficult. I find goretex quite good during snow, even moderately wet snow, but I don't find much at all helps rain. For approachs or just backpacking where I might find rain I carry an umbrela. I found some ultralight thing (which really is ultra light) which compacts to a very small size at wallgreens and use that. I remain drier than ever and I can even lay it over my head to use during break stops and the like.

 

Honestly, I can't express how much I have benifited from going the umbrella route.

 

The one thing I have failed to solve is walking through wet brush. I think it's pretty much impossible at that point unless you want to wear nonbreathable fabrics and figure out some really ingenious way to vent them.

[Squid]

Wool- bring it out of the closet, and into the open.

[robert]

I have used an umbrella a couple of times, but since I now using hiking poles all the time it is a bit of a hassel. I have rigged them up tucked into by pack, but I haven't found a really stable attachment.

 

I have found nothing that can stay dry in wet brush. My best there is to be the last in line. At least some will have been knocked off by my partners.

[robert]

Wool- bring it out of the closet, and into the open.

 

Funny. I was just about to say that hardshell and softshell both beat wool and oiled canvas. Wool does have some great characteristics, but it is pretty heavy and really hot. It does make great socks though.

[Alpine_Tom]

I can't say enough how much an ultralight umbrella kicks ass. As people have mentioned, staying dry in rain is really difficult. I find goretex quite good during snow, even moderately wet snow, but I don't find much at all helps rain. For approachs or just backpacking where I might find rain I carry an umbrela. I found some ultralight thing (which really is ultra light) which compacts to a very small size at wallgreens and use that. I remain drier than ever and I can even lay it over my head to use during break stops and the like.

 

Honestly, I can't express how much I have benifited from going the umbrella route.

 

The one time I tried it, after reading Beyond Backpacking I was astonished how well it worked -- it keeps the rain off you, and there's no ventillation problem. The only issue, of course, is that it's tough to hold an umbrella if you're using an ice axe or trecking poles.