Serratus RIP

[tomtom]

Interesting discussion.

 

Why can Arcteryx succeed where MEC is failing? MEC has the advantage of the retail outlets.

[Squid]

Arc'Teryx is the new North Face. It has the cachet that MEC lacks. Everyone wants to drag their 3ply 'Teryx around campus, in their SUV, to the soccer game.

Soon, it will be in the back of the closet, with their Adidas shoes, parachute pants, and Vuarnet sunglasses.

[PaulB]

Arc'Teryx is the new North Face.

A trip through any lift line at Whistler will confirm that observation. Dead birds all over the place!

[Bogen]

I care much for "trendy" but my arc'teryx tweave pants are without question the most amazing tech clothing I've ever had.

[stinkyclimber]

Hi Gord,

 

Thanks for your input. I was hoping that you'd wade in with your unique and well-backed perspective.

 

On pack pricing, I only quickly looked at the Alpine 85 (which I have and know) and the Alpinelite pricing, and then looked at similar sized packs by Dead'Bird and Gregory. The Dead'Bird Bora packs come in at $360-400ish. I admit that the Gregory is only $30 more - not much of a different (altho that pack is all tricked out to shit). Of course, the Serratus Condor is still less than $200. Anyway, I don't want to get into a debate over pack pricing...I don't doubt that MEC-labelled, off-shore produced packs based on existing Serratus designs will be cheaper and better. After more discussion with others (like you!) and thought, I don't even disagree with that strategy.

 

I think my main concern remains, and it is certainly reflected in all of my communication with MEC management, the growing disconnect between MEC's mission, especially as is embodied in the Memorandum of Association, and its practices. If MEC wants to change its focus, fine - but lets debate it rather than let it happen by stealth.

 

I know MEC's first goal must always be to operate in a way to remain solvent. But does that justify building more stores, in more markets, to overwhelm all other comers? Does that justify selling car-camping sleeping bags and travel backs and book-bags and fashionable clothing to grow market share? If MEC can't remain solvent and hold true to their mission, then it seems to me that either MEC should restate its mission, or close.

 

And I am not suggesting that MEC is already incongruent with its mission - it is still quite a unique, progressive retail operation that serves its core constituency amazingly well. However, my experience in the NGO sector suggests to me that "mission creep" is happening at MEC - something that can transform an organization without anyone noticing until it is too late...and then you can be stuck with an entity that you didn't intend to create, and are unhappy with.

 

I absolutely agree that I don't want to see MEC employees, especially the most experienced, skilled ones, laid off to subsidize lower priced equipment. That is pretty much the gist of my letter - how far do you sacrifice your mission to profit and growth? Do you open new and larger stores and carry more and broader inventory, but lay off key technical staff, or do you stay smaller, more focused and pour surpluses into superior gear design and excellent technical advice to customers?

 

I simply want to open discussion on what I perceive to be mission creep - an slow, but steady movement away from its stated core mission to design, manufacture, purchase, sell and rent products for self-propelled wilderness oriented recreational activities. If my perception is wrong, I will accept that. But if my observations ring true to some, then I would like to see the issue debated and confronted more openly by the Board. If the Board and members agree to modify MEC's mission, fine, I accept the democratic process. What I don't accept without a fuss is drastic change without debate in what is a member-driven organization.

 

One last thing: Dru, I suggest you try the MEC Presto Sling Pack - it looks like it won't interfere with your helmet at all. Plus, it will show off your manly chest.

 

See ya,

Mike

[fishstick]

Mike,

 

Thanks for your reply.

 

I will respond this evening. Buried here.

 

Cheers,

 

GB

[gourd]

Greetings one and all,

 

I would like to add my two bits to the Serratus comments. First I’ll point out that I work for MEC and I have designed virtually all of the Serratus products made in the last eleven years (packs, bike-bags, PFDs, etc). I have also designed many of the MEC packs, sleeping bags, tents, etc for the last eight years. Obviously my personal tastes in packs run to the ones people have commented on positively in this web-site over the years; the lean, technical packs. I admit that I also made the more behemoth style packs such as the Ibex. The sad truth is the “full featured” packs like the Ibex, Gregory, Arc’teryx, et al make up the bulk of the big-pack market and we wanted to offer some Serratus packs that would sell, so that we could keep making things like the Gene, Aladdin, Icefall, and Alpine 65/85 (if you lump the Alpine 85 in with the behemoth packs you clearly haven’t used one). In the end though, the MEC membership decides where and how to spend their money and the clear winner in the pack market in Canada is the MEC packs. With the closing of Serratus we will be pouring all of our energy into the MEC packs, not holding back on the high end to protect the Serratus brand as we have for years, and dividing our energy between the two brands. Our intention is to cover the technical niches we served with Serratus using new MEC designs, but do it better and at a lower price. We will not be transferring exact pack designs over (and there is no copyright or intellectual protection on virtually any pack on the market) to the MEC brand, but rather developing technical equivalents. The same people that have been behind all of the really tech Serratus packs will be the same people behind the MEC packs, so I truly hope we will not disappoint our fellow core users! I’m glad a lot of people like the Genie – I designed and built it on my own time, for myself, before it ever saw the light of day as a Serratus product. Now, many years later, I fully intend to make a MEC replacement that is even better!

 

A note on why Arc’teryx can compete and Serratus could not (not to be confused with the MEC packs, which can and do compete with anything on the market). First of all, Arc’teryx sells to a global market, not just to MEC as does Serratus. The bulk of their product is also clothing – a much bigger market than packs and panniers. Hence their factory is ten times bigger than Serratus and they can benefit from all of the advantages that a larger scale brings. They also manufacture a portion of the their product line outside of Canada – not an option for Serratus due to their role within MEC. Lastly, because of their scale, financial backing, and focus on being a manufacturer, Arc’teryx has been able to pour vast amounts of money and resources into marketing, advertising, professional athletes, design, manufacturing technologies, and distribution. All of these things permit Arc’teryx to produce exceptionally good gear and command a premium price for their products, enabling them to make high-end stuff in Canada. Being owned by Adidas (a 5 billion dollar multinational) probably doesn’t hurt either. Far bigger companies than Serratus gave up on manufacturing packs domestically years ago (The North Face, Marmot, Osprey, Dana Designs, Kelty, Mountainsmith, REI, LL Bean, Lafuma, Millet, Gregory, Eagle Creek, Lowe, etc, etc). It is really a credit to all the great people at Serratus and our minimalist customers (few may they be) that they have been able to keep it going for so long. Thanks to you all.

[gourd]

bizzare thing to strike you as

[jordop]

MEC North van opened in secret last night and lo and behold not a single Serratus product in sight!!!!!!! In fact, there were even some new MEC packs for Spring '05 already in store. One in particular was called the Teenie Genie Hopefully it is just a cruel joke as this thing is smaller, heavier, and loaded with all sorts of crap For those of us who spend enough time living out of Genies to get your mail delivered to it, it was a little sad

[JayB]

Anyone looking for a cautionary tale regarding mission creep need only look South of the border. REI is good at what it does - mass market retailing of mid-market and-up outdoor equipment - but it has long since abandoned the pretense that it is still dedicated to the principals and objectives that it was founded upon.

 

To the occaisional shopper from the South - it seemed as though MEC was tangibly different, and at least making the effort to stay true to the mission outlined above. If they're heading in REI's direction - intentionally or otherwise - this might be a good time for the membership to weigh in and make their preferences known to the board.

[Dru]

The Teenie Genie is about 2 or 3 years old - hardly some New Thing.

[jordop]

The Teenie Genie is about 2 or 3 years old - hardly some New Thing.

Really? God I am so suck Haven't seen it in catalogues lately, so maybe they're bringing it back. In any event, hope to see some good technical MEC packs in the future . . .

[jordop]

The possible loss of the Genie aside, I picked up a new $35 pod pack thingy last night on the advice from someone who told me how they're the bomb cause you can swing em around to get in em w/o taking them off, and they ride opposite to a gear sling. Must say, kinda cool, rides high so it doesn't kill the lower back

[stinkyclimber]

To the occaisional shopper from the South - it seemed as though MEC was tangibly different, and at least making the effort to stay true to the mission outlined above. If they're heading in REI's direction - intentionally or otherwise - this might be a good time for the membership to weigh in and make their preferences known to the board.

Thanks for the observation from an "outsider" (altho is you are a member, even a Yank(!), then you are in insider!) - my concern is based almost wholly on the REI experience...the WalMartization of outdoor equipment retailing. And there may not be anything wrong with that model (although obviously I am not supportive of it, but that is not the issue here), but it IS an inappropriate business plan for MEC to follow if they also want to claim that they are holding true to their mission. And if they want to go that path, fine, but as you say, let the membership decide by having an open debate that ends in a vote to amend the mission and change the Memorandum of Association.

 

Oh, and hey Jordop, forget the pod pack thingy...go with the vastly more stylish Presto Slingpack.

[tomtom]

REI really can't be compared to Wal-Mart. Wal-Mart is intent on driving down consumer prices while maintaining profit margins. REI keeps prices at MSRP, returns the minimum expected 10% dividend, and pockets the rest to spend on ???

[gearup5000]

For the most part on Arc'teryx gear, it always seemed to fit and work better. I got started with the Bora 30, the only daypack with a removeable frame sheet and stay.

Now the new ones have a floating op lid, and a little organizer pocket inside, and a key clip in the top lid.

They seemed to listend and add valuable features.

 

I think Serratus seemed a little static, but for the most part, it's non-existant image hurt it vis-a-vis established brands (like Arc'teryx) that shoppers coming into the store already heard of. Same goes for the MEC brand - instant familiarity = greater confidence in the consumer.

 

Oh, and although Arc'teryx is NOW owned by ADidas-Salomon,

it wasn't always that way. They have done a lot for design in the industry: laminating things especially, look at all the copy-cat water-proof zippers, off-center zipper on TNF jackets.

 

It's kind of sad to see Serratus go, but I guess it got caught standing still in a fast paced world.

 

And yeah, what is WITH all the cloudveil stuff at MEC?

Why not Arc'teryx?

[jordop]

With the closing of Serratus we will be pouring all of our energy into the MEC packs, not holding back on the high end to protect the Serratus brand as we have for years, and dividing our energy between the two brands. Our intention is to cover the technical niches we served with Serratus using new MEC designs, but do it better and at a lower price. We will not be transferring exact pack designs over (and there is no copyright or intellectual protection on virtually any pack on the market) to the MEC brand, but rather developing technical equivalents. The same people that have been behind all of the really tech Serratus packs will be the same people behind the MEC packs, so I truly hope we will not disappoint our fellow core users! I’m glad a lot of people like the Genie – I designed and built it on my own time, for myself, before it ever saw the light of day as a Serratus product. Now, many years later, I fully intend to make a MEC replacement that is even better!

I got the new catalogue yesterday. All the Serratus stuff gone of course, but nothing new under the house brand to fill the voids. I guess we're gonna have to wait until Fall to see this next round of MEC brand technical packs and clothing.

 

I can't help but feel however that with the 2-3 pages of hydration and urban packs in the new catalogue that there has been a vast shift that MEC rather stealthily hides; its a question of priorities. I do not even work near to the industry and it is obvious the things I would like to see MEC doing to remain "technical":

 

1. Make a Schoeller/powershield soft shell with a hood damnit, and treat it as outerwear a la the Patagonia Dimension/Krushell. The ferrata is way too small and skimpy for shit storms.

 

2. Tents made out of silnylon. Is the stuff hard to get?

 

3. Sell winter climbing gloves. Why was the MixMaster taken off the market?

[stinkyclimber]

Now might be the time to mention this stuff to the MEC Chair - remind her that you don't see the gear in the new catalogue they said they would replace with the passing of Serratus. They need to know that members care about this...otherwise, the urban-recreation-SUV-assault types who vote with their wallets by buying the MEC Flux daypack ("A slick city-living pack that easily totes a small lunch and extra fleece when you’re day hiking") and other bullshit will win, and we will end up with awesome book bags and no climbing-specific gear.

[fenderfour]

Hey Gourd - Thanks for making some kick ass products at great prices. I picked up an icefall a couple of years ago and it is my pack of choice for almost everything.

 

I hope to see the new improved MEC versions soon. The Brio is similar, but quite a bit heavier and could use fewer zippers.

[fishstick]

The "alpine" based replacement of Serratus product isn't in S05 because photos/specs of such needed to be in the hands of the cat production staff back in the fall. That was quite impossible.

 

New product has been designed, with replacements of the Genie, Aladin, A60 and A85, to my knowledge, on order for this summer. The description given to me of the Aladin replacement (my favorite pack) was "you are going to shit". It sounds very good.

 

Hats off to Gourd for getting this stuff getting done quickly.

 

Cheers,

 

GB

[jordop]

The "alpine" based replacement of Serratus product isn't in S05 because photos/specs of such needed to be in the hands of the cat production staff back in the fall. That was quite impossible.

 

New product has been designed, with replacements of the Genie, Aladin, A60 and A85, to my knowledge, on order for this summer. The description given to me of the Aladin replacement (my favorite pack) was "you are going to shit". It sounds very good.

 

Hats off to Gourd for getting this stuff getting done quickly.

 

Cheers,

 

GB

 

Wicked. Alladin replacement sounds sweet. You know, I do think that if MEC made a gucci Dimension or Mammut Laser knockoff with powershield or schoeller, they'd sell a tonne Nice to see the technical things will still be there

[fishstick]

Re: Jordop 9.05am

 

1) Done, I've used it, but I'm unsure when it is due in. Thinking about it, there are two of them coming (used the second as well).

2) Quite some time ago MEC switched from nylon to polyester for tent flys to achieve higher performance in wet conditions (nylon absorbs 10 times more water than polyester and stretches when wet). Secondly, it is worth noting that some of the very "light weight" fabrics look light, but in reality weight savings may be as little as 100g per tent with an overall decrease in durability (somewhat dependant upon which factory the light weight fabric is coming from).

3) Regarding the mm, I'm unsure. I personally did not see a replacement. They were a nice product, but lacked durability in the palm for placing screws. I'm almost of the mindset to use a lighter unit when climbing, combined with a belay mitt for the standing around part. Q: which generation of mixed masters do you own (membrane on shell or membrane on liner?

 

GB

Edited March 17, 2005 by fishstick

[Dru]

I'm sick of the mixed masters... all of mine ended up with large holes near the thumb-finger saddle after about 3 weeks of regular use. i switched to the BD glove which, while $40hotoe, will hopefully last for longer than 3 weeks.

[jordop]

I'm not a huge fan of the MM either, just saying that when it was taken off the market there was nothing to replace it.

The Gore full-on inserts are really terrible, dexterity goes right down. I prefer a gore-panelled glove, like the BD System, but then I seam seal the shit out of 'em. Both designs are compromises.

[tomtom]

3) Regarding the mm, I'm unsure. I personally did not see a replacement. They were a nice product, but lacked durability in the palm for placing screws. I'm almost of the mindset to use a lighter unit when climbing, combined with a belay mitt for the standing around part. Q: which generation of mixed masters do you own (membrane on shell or membrane on liner?

 

GB

What I would like to see is an insulated mitt with a thin removable wool inner liner with a leather palm. For Ice climbing, leave the mitts in the leashes (yeah, I know) and pull out to place screws, etc. I can't do anything in thick gloves.

 

 

REI had a Snowboard mitt that was pretty close.