carolyn Posted September 9, 2002 Share Posted September 9, 2002 THis board is filled with a number of creative folks. Hopefully some of you can help me develop ideas in regards to some communication problems Im having with my main climbing partner. Let me preface this with stating that my climbing partner is an AWESOME person. Not only do I have a blast each time we climb together, I find I go beyond what I thought my abilities were. Its a relationship Im NOT willing to just chuck away. The concern I have (for safety reasons) is the fact that he really doesnt hear well. Its already proven to put us in some potentially dangerous situations. And Im not talking about excessive wind, road noise,etc making it difficult to hear(although that makes it much worse). He truley has a hearing problem. He acknowledges that he cant hear, yet its obvious he doesnt "accept" it as being a medical problem. Communication while climbing is becoming more and more of a struggle. We have incorporated rope tugs and almost always use single word commands. Im thinking a lot about getting some 2 way radios. ALthough, Im not sure how well that will go over with him. I mean, how silly are we going to look on 50ft climbs using a radio for communication?! On the other hand, how silly am I going to look when he *thinks* I say off belay and I fall to the ground? Has anybody here climbed with another person who has a hearing impairment or is deaf? Know of any climbers who are deaf/hard of hearing? I would like to come up with creative solutions to keep us safe. THanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salbrecher Posted September 9, 2002 Share Posted September 9, 2002 I once climbed with someone who is hard of hearing(only other explaination because I would yell commands) and our shouting matches would usually end with a frustrated belayer(me) lowering the climber at unusually fast speeds or paying out generous amounts of penalty slack. He seemed to hear better after that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolyn Posted September 9, 2002 Author Share Posted September 9, 2002 quote: Originally posted by salbrecher: ...our shouting matches would usually end with a frustrated belayer(me) lowering the climber at unusually fast speeds or paying out generous amounts of penalty slack... OMG THat was SOOOO funny, because that was EXACTLY ME today. Only we just opted to go get some bloody mary's at 10am instead of continuing....with the heat we had, I just wasnt ready to put in the extra energy... Thanks for making me laugh about it for once ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinker Posted September 9, 2002 Share Posted September 9, 2002 you might try some of the cheap FRS radios. for $75 you can pick up a pair some places (Costco, online retailers, etc.). They might just be the ticket for saving the relationship, and your life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off_White Posted September 9, 2002 Share Posted September 9, 2002 I've always been a little dismissive of radios, but a good friend recently advocated for them based on his personal experience, and we had an outing together where communication between either end of the pitch was impossible. We relied on the time tested semaphore of rope movement (pre-arranged to boot), but it started me thinking, and I bought a couple at Costco shortly thereafter, justifying them as a business expense since they'll be useful communicating to the cut station on siding jobs. I put 'em to use for the first time on my recent Dragontail outing with my step son, and it was pretty damned convenient. I really appreciated being able to clearly communicate from either end of a 60 meter pitch in 35 mph wind, and I think it really upped our safety margin, especially considering my partner's relative lack of experience. Carolyn, I'd say give it a try. They run about $50 a pair, and it just might be the thing to make your outings more rewarding, which I'm sure you both would participate. I'm probably 90% deaf in one ear, so I can identify with your partner's denial, but its just as frustrating on his end as yours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike_Gauthier Posted September 9, 2002 Share Posted September 9, 2002 like offwhite, i too dismissed radios for quite some time. now, however, i use them when necessary and would say that they are damn helpful and convenient... i bought the cheapest pair at Fred Meyers for $35 and they work GREAT!! don't waste your money on anything fancy b/c as i've found, they get dropped from time to time... regarding climbing with someone who is nearly deaf... i have NO experience here... why though, do you stick with it if this person can't admit the facts about the dilemma?, "yet its obvious he doesn’t "accept" it as being a medical problem." moreover, "Its already proven to put us in some potentially dangerous situations... Communication while climbing is becoming more and more of a struggle." jeez caroline, sounds dangerous to me... forget about offending him and looking silly... think of your own ass. (hell, i climb with a helmet on at smith rock which many would consider silly.) it sounds to me like you need to have a conversation with him off the rock. good luck mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off_White Posted September 9, 2002 Share Posted September 9, 2002 Perhaps that stutter is a medical problem you need to accept I don't know the mechanism of the "double post" but it seems somewhat common around here. You can always go back to the second one and edit it (the symbol will be the pencil and pad of paper). Just delete all the content. You might have to leave a period or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crack Posted September 9, 2002 Share Posted September 9, 2002 another vote for cheap radios -i picked up a pair this summer for under $15 bucks, made by Uniden. they are super light and tiny, each taking a pair of AAA batteries. very simple in design and function... another option which i use often is a tug system. no doubt there are many variations to this, i just use what has worked for me: 1) first set of tugs, from leader -means he/she is anchored in at the belay, and ready to get off rope. i tug at least 6-7 times, just a few can be confused with rope drag, unnoticed, etc. after this first set of tugs the belayer can get ready to climb -be tied in before putting your shoes back on or whatever, at this time the leader can start bringing up the rope(s)/slack... 2) the second set of tugs comes from the belayer, letting the leader know to start belaying. when i'm bringing someone up, i keep the belay on super tight at first to let the 2nd know that they're on... i would suggest practicing anything new on easy terrain, and find what's gonna work best for you. it's nice to be able to climb without screaming back and forth, and often entertaining listening to other parties ... FB quote: "HAH?!!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted September 9, 2002 Share Posted September 9, 2002 I have a hard time hearing in certin places because of the angle of the rock(or maybe I just can't hear ) etc. At times it is difficult and JK and I have talked about a rope tug system. thanks for the topic and the ideas. [ 09-09-2002, 08:37 AM: Message edited by: sk ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted September 9, 2002 Share Posted September 9, 2002 I use as system similar to that described by Crack, except that 5 tugs means "climb." If the belayer doesn't start climbing within a reasonable time, I pull 5 times again. It may mean the leader has set a belay, or maybe they have not reached one and want to simulclimb. On alpine rock climbs as opposed to crags, the terrain tends to be more complex and there is more pressure to keep moving so the leader is more likely to want to keep climbing until they are out of rope -- and then want to keep climbing further. They may see a better belay further up, there may be no safe anchors anywhere, or perhaps they've climbed around a horn or some other feature such that they need only keep climbing to have their second "on belay." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimL Posted September 9, 2002 Share Posted September 9, 2002 This topic reminds me of an interesting situation a partner and I had last year while climbing Hyperspace. Before the climb my buddy mentioned he forgot his hearing aid at home and so we were going to need to use his radios. After climbing the Psychopath pitch I put him on belay and had a sudden feeling that I dropped something. Well, looked down only to see the radio bouncing down the wall and disappearing into a hundred thousand pieces at the base. The next pitch consisted of a bunch of "what"..."yeeeaaahhhh, belay is ooonnn". After a pitch of doing screaming commands we quickly figured out a tug system. Moral of the story is radios are nice but figure out a tug system as well in case something happens to the radio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Parker Posted September 9, 2002 Share Posted September 9, 2002 I have quit using the phrase "on/off belay." It's too confusing in dubious hearing conditions. I now use "secure" when I reach the belay as the leader and then "on belay" to let my partner know it's ok to start climbing. "Belay" is an easy word to understand but the "on" or "off" can be easily lost in the wind. A good tug system is mandatory for back up. Discuss it with your partner prior to the first pitch as often you find out sooner than later communication is a problem. As a leader, when I arrive at a belay, I tie myself in and leave all slack below until after I have set up the anchor. Only when all is ready to belay do I pull up the slack. When my partner knows and understands this, he knows that when the slack comes up, he can climb immediately after. Of course this can become confuing when you stretch the rope to reach the belay. Then the tug system works. I have the radios but have not tried them yet. Sounds like it's time! [ 09-09-2002, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: David Parker ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
payaso Posted September 10, 2002 Share Posted September 10, 2002 I think radios are the only way to reliably do it. The "tug" system can fail. Once when we were both out of each other's sight we waited for each other's tug signals, but realized much later that the rope had gotten caught. This wasted a lot of time waiting for "lost" signals. The lead tugged when he was finished and assumed I felt it. I tugged to indicate I was ready, but he never was able to respond. This could be very bad if the situation was critical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted September 10, 2002 Share Posted September 10, 2002 I use a bullhorn and whip. They usually get the clue after a whippin or 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_W Posted September 10, 2002 Share Posted September 10, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Cpt.Caveman: I use a bullhorn and whip. They usually get the clue after a whippin or 2. Oooooh, hurts so good Cavey!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolyn Posted September 13, 2002 Author Share Posted September 13, 2002 Thanks for the replies and ideas. I think early saturday morning I will do some digging around for radios. The more I recommend radios with him, the more he is open to it. I think if I just show up with them he will be fine...and probably thankful. Most of the climbs here arent really that tall, so we can almost always see each other. We are also very good at "knowing" what each other needs w/o saying anything. The problems arise when there is a lot of background noise in the area (wind, vehicles,boats, waves, other people talking) and a simple one word command wont communicate what is needed. Also, on the occasion we do a climb where we cant see each other (more typical on ice). The rope tugs...we have a system and use it when need be. I think adding an extra tug or two might make me feel more comfortable. Thanks for pointing that out. David... I like the idea of not using "on belay" or "off belay". VERY easy to mistake what the person is saying. My guess there are other commands or words we use that could be misconstrued as well. We will have to think it over...or at least be more aware, so we can make changes as needed. Ive also been in touch this week with a person who is deaf and climbs. He had some good ideas which we could adapt and/or elaborate on. Finally, Mike, I understand the importance of having a talk "off the rock/ice". It has begun and will continue until its fully resolved. In the meantime, I wanted to find some creative communication alternatives...to keep us safe, and minimize his frustration. Again, thanks for the suggestions! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolyn Posted September 13, 2002 Author Share Posted September 13, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Cpt.Caveman: I use a bullhorn and whip. They usually get the clue after a whippin or 2. Ya, except the one time I DID use the whip... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolyn Posted September 16, 2002 Author Share Posted September 16, 2002 Got the radios...cheapos, as suggested. My partner thought they were way "fun". I almost sensed a bit of relief from him. I honestly felt a little dumb at times. I wound up telling others I have a hard time hearing. Most folks were pretty accepting. I think they will take some getting used to and DEFINATELY can not be the only thing we rely on....(we wound up w/interference and heard how "johnny had to use the bathroom" and numerous other conversations in various languages :yellaf). Although they were helpful on one climb today, they served their purpose the best when we hid one in a crack along the top of a climb. i would have paid money to see the tourists' faces as they sat on the edge of the cliff dropping peanut shells on us and then heard: "This is the park ranger. We do not allow any nuts in this park..." We saw them retreat immediately. At any rate, I feel relieved that I have some solid ideas on better communication to keep us safe...and that we are putting them in action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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