Ice-Sporto Litter

[Peter_Puget]

What is a trad crag?

[Dru]

A crag where most of the bolts are placed on lead, or were placed on rappel but by trad climbers, silly!

[Peter_Puget]

[mattp]

Dru, you are incorrect about Infinite Bliss. The Forest Service personnel in no way have sought to inflate the issue and I have seen absolutely no effort on their part to try to "justify their job." In the Middle Fork, they have plenty to do.

 

I don't know the history of the City of Rocks closure, but my guess is that the issue did not start with some dim bulb with a government job. I am sure there are people who head out there to see a historic landmark and don't want to see climbers and rappel anchors all over it. Is the closure necessary or warranted? I don't know. Can we live with it? Probably so.

[Dru]

the issue inflation comes from the fact this route is basically right on ther wilderness boundary or maybe even outside it depending on whose map you believe... maybe they should cut a swathe like the canada-usa border so there is an on the ground line showing on which part of the mountain it is legal to build a trail or place a bolt

[mattp]

Again, you are incorrect. The boundary in that location runs along a contour line, and the route is clearly located above that contour. The USGS map incorrectly shows the boundary to run along section lines, but in fact there is no question whether the route is in or out of the wilderness.

 

The Forest Service did not raise the issue. They are doing their best to respond to it, and they will enforce their regulations. That is called doing their job - not justifying it.

 

I'm with you about how the clumsy government bureaucracy often seems to be self-serving and driven by self interest and etc -- but I haven't see it in this case and not on this particular issue.

[ashw_justin]

I honestly don't believe this is about visual impact. It's about newfangled sporto-mixto climbers showing obliviousness or a lack of respect for what other climbers feel is acceptable. Just because you're strong, doesn't mean you have a special right to hang stuff wherever you want. People will respect that you're projecting something but this does not mean you own the rock or the route. And I'd just like to reiterate that pinkpunting is wrong, mmmkay, and the world's top climbers should set a better example for the rest of us by nutting up. No wussing on bolt climbs=no draw problems.

[Dru]

Yo justin what about if they only free solo bolted climbs like Alex Huber!

[ashw_justin]

This talk of wilderness boundaries, regulations, and authorities begs the question: can climbers self-govern their own ethics, or do we need the government telling us how to climb?

[MervGriffin]

I honestly don't believe this is about visual impact. It's about newfangled sporto-mixto climbers showing obliviousness or a lack of respect for what other climbers feel is acceptable. Just because you're strong, doesn't mean you have a special right to hang stuff wherever you want. People will respect that you're projecting something but this does not mean you own the rock or the route. And I'd just like to reiterate that pinkpunting is wrong, mmmkay, and the world's top climbers should set a better example for the rest of us by nutting up. No wussing on bolt climbs=no draw problems.

 

"Dude! Someone is taking our quick draws! They've only been there a year and Uncle Rico told me that you had to preplace all your gear and leave it there or it won't count as a real climb!"

[Dru]

Again, you are incorrect. The boundary in that location runs along a contour line, and the route is clearly located above that contour.

 

The way it was reported here earlier was that it was the trail to the base, not the route itself, that is the real issue. Are you saying the trail is outside the wilderness boundary because it is below the contour?

[RuMR]

I honestly don't believe this is about visual impact. It's about newfangled sporto-mixto climbers showing obliviousness or a lack of respect for what other climbers feel is acceptable. Just because you're strong, doesn't mean you have a special right to hang stuff wherever you want. People will respect that you're projecting something but this does not mean you own the rock or the route. And I'd just like to reiterate that pinkpunting is wrong, mmmkay, and the world's top climbers should set a better example for the rest of us by nutting up. No wussing on bolt climbs=no draw problems.

 

and so ash has spoken!! all hail ye

 

you climb the way you want to, and others will do the same, mmmmkay?

[ashw_justin]

Yo justin what about if they only free solo bolted climbs like Alex Huber!

 

Right on. He wasn't clipping draws, but it's obvious he's wicked strong. How many climbers nowdays are hanging draws all over 5.14's (and lower) because they feel it's "the only way to climb the route" or "that's just how you do it." No, that's just how you do it if you're not strong enough. That's why it's rated 5.14. Because it's frickin ridiculously hard to climb, much less redpoint. Anyway, I don't know if Alex Huber thinks that pinkpointing=redpointing, but I hope that someone that strong would be able to trade a meaningless number for some true style.

 

The one valid argument to leaving the draws up, is it's a real pain in the ass to take them down, especially while projecting. So I say fine, leave them up if you're actively working the route. But take them down when it's time to send, and take them down unless the route is being worked actively/frequently.

 

For example, Little Si. There's always somebody there trying to lead Chronic, the hung draws are constantly being used, by many different people. On top of that, it's a well-developed sport crag, and nobody there has a problem with it. Aside from the safety issue I have no objection to draws hanging on something like that. But I still think that a real redpoint should involve cleaning the route and placing your own draws, even on a pre-hung route. I personally will not consider climbing on pre-hung draws to be a repoint, no matter what grade I am climbing. It's a very simple definition. You can't redpoint it? Fine, go for the pinkpoint. It's still a great accomplishment there's no shame in it (unless you have something against "pink" ).

 

Now we're talking about bolted projects popping up along trails. It's not a sport crag, and there's only one guy(?) supposedly "working" this thing. This is the kind of situation where if you don't see somebody working the route, you shouldn't see their draws there either.

 

(ps. What's that? The bolts are out of reach? I heard that some routes are actually bolted with pre-hung draws in mind. This is retarded and should not be done.)

 

-Justin, uber-sporto-5.11-climber.

[mattp]

Dru, most of the trail lies outside the contour. I don't recall which contour it is or what the elevation at the base of the route actually is. User-built trails and other similar unplanned and unregulated development raise a number of issues for the Forest Service.

[ashw_justin]

I honestly don't believe this is about visual impact. It's about newfangled sporto-mixto climbers showing obliviousness or a lack of respect for what other climbers feel is acceptable. Just because you're strong, doesn't mean you have a special right to hang stuff wherever you want. People will respect that you're projecting something but this does not mean you own the rock or the route. And I'd just like to reiterate that pinkpunting is wrong, mmmkay, and the world's top climbers should set a better example for the rest of us by nutting up. No wussing on bolt climbs=no draw problems.

 

and so ash has spoken!! all hail ye

 

you climb the way you want to, and others will do the same, mmmmkay?

 

RuMR, you have the mutant sick climbing strength. You can send things that I only dream of. I would like to see amazingly strong climbers like you set a better example for younger/newer climbers like myself by redpointing as it was originally intended.

 

I wouldn't have brought up this business if it wasn't relevant--somebody has a problem with pre-hung draws. That's the way that somebody "climbs the way they want," but at the expense of others. As for the repointing rant, I know I'm not the only climber who's confused that the definition of a redpoint suddenly changes somewhere around 5.13.

[RuMR]

i don't think it does...a project is a project...i know guys that are seeking "redpoints" on their respective projects (whatever definition you choose) who hang draws on 11-'s and even 10's...i don't ever recall anyone saying "hey man, you didn't redpoint that route because the stuff was preplaced"...

 

Hell, the previous "definition" from a couple of decades ago considered a YO-YO ascent a valid lead...

 

My point, in my post, was that each individual should choose how they wish to climb a route and in whatever "style" they chose and be left alone and not hassled over it...

[Dru]

Can you redpoint a trail if you pre-place shoes all the way along it and use them as stepping stones?

[RuMR]

only if you are carrying a squid in your back pocket and its a monday

[Alex]

I think you can only redpoint a trail if you bleed all over it in organized splatters.

[ashw_justin]

don't think it does...a project is a project...i know guys that are seeking "redpoints" on their respective projects (whatever definition you choose) who hang draws on 11-'s and even 10's...i don't ever recall anyone saying "hey man, you didn't redpoint that route because the stuff was preplaced"...

 

I'll never give in to the dark side!

Edited September 10, 2004 by ashw_justin

[Off_White]

I am talking more generally here of things such as the Twin Owls in City of Rocks being closed to all climbing so that tourists can experience the Oregon Trail experience without seeing any intrusive climbers climbing a rock. You can bet some dim bulb with a government job or a position on a NGO thought that one up.

 

Dru, I know you hate to be corrected, so I'm going to do it. The formation is actually the Twin Sisters.

 

I don't know who made the complaint about pollution of the "historic viewshed" as they refer to it, but I assure you from up on that formation the Winnebagos, roads, fence lines, and obvious effects of overgrazing sure mess with the historic nature of the view. It's all a matter of perspective, and I find that closure one of the more ridiculous on record.

[Dru]

Maybe the Owls are sisters did you ever think of that smart guy?

[ashw_justin]

A trail redpoint is the first time you hike successfully lead hike it without getting lost. Pinkpoint if any flagging tape is encountered.

[Greg_W]

I pre-place all my gear....right before I clip it.

[MervGriffin]

"My point, in my post, was that each individual should choose how they wish to climb a route and in whatever "style" they chose and be left alone and not hassled over it..."

 

And they should take their toys home with them when they're done instead of leaving them on the playground like a self-centered spoiled brat because they think they might come back tomorrow or whenever. "Projects"? Nonsense. You leave a mess for others to experience and you're going to get hassled.

 

"When I finally get that pink-point/purple-point/brown-point...it will be a SWEET masterpiece."