Belaying second on multipitch sport

[dtw]

This is related to the multipitch sport technique thread...

 

Let's say you're belaying a second from the top of a pitch with 2 anchor bolts placed over /below a ledge (like the ones on the columns at vantage) with not much above the ledge to build a solid anchor.

 

 

 

What's your position/setup/technique of choice?

[Dru]

If the bolts are below the ledge it is because you are supposed to LOWER OFF not sit around belaying at the top.

[b-rock]

he said multipitch though? not sure how you'd lower off, unless you have a 140 meter rope.

[Dru]

so where on multipitch sport are the anchors placed below the ledge then? and why was his example using Vantage, archetypical single pitch crag?

[fenderfour]

A hanging belay on a sport route? Good times... Good times...

[catbirdseat]

so where on multipitch sport are the anchors placed below the ledge then? and why was his example using Vantage, archetypical single pitch crag?

There are some multipitch at Vantage, but not many, and those are not popular.

[ashw_justin]

he said multipitch though? not sure how you'd lower off, unless you have a 140 meter rope.

 

How many sport routes around here are 70 meters to the chains? I thought a "pitch" was either 25 or 30 meters.

[james_e]

You guys are not much help. How's the dude supposed to figure it out with the info you're givin him?

 

Ok well where do i start. With hanging belays I like to clip myself into the bolts with two slings girth hitched to the belay loop on my harness. It feels more secure to me than clove hitching myself in with the rope. Then i like to redirect the belay back up through the anchors, as opposed to belaying with the rope going straight from my harness down to the climber. As far as position goes, just do whatever is most comfortable.

 

For a standing belay, like on a ledge, I like to use an auto locking belay thingie attached directly to the anchor. I use a petzl reverso. I just stand facing the belay device so that i can control the rope well.

 

That's about it. Mostly you just need to figure out what is the most comfortable for you and how you can control the rope best, cuz most people do it differently.

 

I hope that helps, and good luck.

[dtw]

Ok, I was only using vantage as an example of anchor arrangement not as a place where I'd belay from the top.

 

But for the sake of instruction, imagine (for some reason) you were belaying from the rap anchors on sunshine wall... how would you arrange it, or would you build another anchor back from the edge?

 

Let me ask the question a little differently...

 

What's your setup when the best or only solid anchor

is below waist level when your on the best or only stance.

 

A hanging belay is one option, but I was actually thinking more of the situation where your sitting on top with bolts at your feet.

 

The scenarios I've seen in use usually involve some varying degree of bad juju such as:

 

-a cluster with the belay device management

-a belayer that will get yanked of a ledge from belaying from a harness

- a belayer that will take a fall factor 2 fall in the process

- in some cases said ff2 will be onto 3' of static sling

 

Now, all this is bad. What would be good?

[Dru]

If you are sitting on ledge with bolts at your feet - blame the dumbass who put up the route. Can you name a real live, actual example of such a route to support your hypothetical what-if?

[rbw1966]

First pitch of Midway at Castle Rock.

[Greg_W]

First pitch of Midway at Castle Rock.

 

In this case, it is possible to run the rope through a directional down to the second, clove hitch into the anchor with the rope (snugging it up so there's limited extension if climber falls), and brace your feet against the main wall.

[iain]

if I remember the bolts on the top of spiderman at smith are kindof like what he's talking about. too close to the edge to sit comfortably with feet over the edge

[Dru]

First pitch of Midway at Castle Rock.

 

Midway is a sport climb? Anyhow I seem to recall you can get a gear belay in the top of Damnation or something...

[Greg_W]

He's not saying Midway is a sportclimb, but an example of the type of anchor that dtw is making up.

[fenderfour]

I don't think that I would want to sit above my anchor. If the second falls you could be pulled off. If you are attached to the anchor with slings and not the rope, you will apply a nasty load on the anchor. I read somewhere that a 4 foot fall on static line creates a 12 kN force. That's enough force to break your back and jumble some internal organs.

 

Using the rope to anchor in creates a dynamic system, but you are going to be treated to a factor 2 fall if you are pulled off your stance.

 

I would setup a hanging belay on the bolts. Sure it's not very comfortable, but it's safer than sitting above you anchor.

[mattp]

I mostly agree, Fenderfour, but where I have a comfortable ledge, particularly one which may be incut or where there are places to brace my feet or something so I'm pretty sure I won't be pulled off -- I sometimes DO sit on a ledge with my anchor at or below my butt, and belay a follower. When they pass me and lead the next pitch, I'm hoping they get gear in early so that I am then anchored from the expected line of pull in the event of a fall. I do this more in trad climbing and mountainclimbing situations where the anchor is sometimes a crack behind the ledge I am sitting on or some extension of it. It also happens where I am sitting on a bush or something.

[Dru]

I have taken a 4 foot static fall on a daisy chain while aid climbing. The anchor was not a pair of fat bolts - it was a piton stack consisting of a Z-ton and two baby angles. I did not break my back or rupture any organs, or even bruise my side. I wouldn't recommend it though.

[dryad]

Say you're sitting on top of one of the Vantage columns with anchor bolts right below the lip of the column pretty much between your legs... would it be a crazy idea to just belay right off the anchor? It might not be comfortable and you'd have to lean pretty far over to pull in the rope, but if your second falls then the force will be on the anchor, not on you, so you wouldn't get yanked off the ledge.

 

You would also attach yourself to the bolts with the rope or a daisy or slings or whatever, but that would be just for your own personal safety, completely independent of the belay.

 

This is just an idea - I never tried it.

[Greg_W]

Dryad, your situation sounds just plain painful. My back aches just trying to imagine it. At Vantage, you would probably just lower off, after setting a toprope anchor. If it was a hanging belay, Munter hitch.

[dryad]

dtw, actually Sunshine Wall at Vantage isn't such a bad example. Some of the routes ("Party in your Pants" is one obvious example) are a too long to toprope with a 50m rope so lowering off is not always an option. People routinely lead, belay from the top, follow, then walk around back down to the base.

Edited September 8, 2004 by dryad

[Dru]

PiYP doesnt require you to belay with anchor below you though does it?

[Greg_W]

Sheeit! We're solving belay problems left and right, here.

[dryad]

PiYP doesnt require you to belay with anchor below you though does it?

No that particular one doesn't. It's also not a sport route. But I haven't climbed any of the sport routes on Sunshine so I don't know how they are set up. The length of the routes neighboring PiYP may also necessitate belaying from the top. This is all pretty much idle conjecture.

[Dru]

Idle conjecture is the hamster that makes this website spin!

Edited September 8, 2004 by Dru