Thinker Posted August 19, 2002 Posted August 19, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Attitude: Sounds like you're both ready to join the mounties. Watch out, I saw at least one of them posting on the board earlier today.....I think he's actually in charge of their climbing classes. Quote
carolyn Posted August 20, 2002 Posted August 20, 2002 Im not really sure I have any new tactics to add when your faced with the fear you have mentioned. However, I can relate. I took a good hit from a chunk of ice this past winter. I was very lucky, and my injuries were minor. The mental battle has been quite the struggle, though. I got myself out the next day and a number of times before the end of the season to work on the fear. I dealt with (and still do) the "what ifs". I find myself having those bad visions, predicting what 'might' happen, etc. i received a lot of good advice from the folks here, similar to what they are giving you. Ive had to work a lot harder at this since the beginning of the summer when I had a near miss with a rock (I must attract falling objects ). I hear someone yell out of pure joy while climbing and have to ask them to stop because its making me jumpy. Someone yells "rope" and I cant hear it clearly...my heart sinks. One sign of loose rock and all I want to do is get the fuck up or out! My heart starts pounding, palms get sweaty, and I get overwhelmed with fear and panic. To top it off, I feel guilty when my partners have to deal with me dealing with myself . What I found the most helpful was focusing on WHY I enjoy climbing and staying in the 'here and now' when the fear strikes. I often stop in the middle of a climb and notice the view around me, find the flowers sticking out of rock, or admire the spiders web in the crack. Sometimes I will ask my partner a dumbass question like, "what kind of ice cream do you have in your freezer right now?". Its the little things which help take my mind off the fear and bring my focus back to the moment. I know those might not all be practical solutions while on lead, but you get the idea...and can adapt them to work for you in your situation. Question for you, shaky..then the rest of the folks... You say you dont go for longer routes now because you dont want to burden (or something to that effect) your partners by asking them to take all the leads. Even though you know this is probably not true, have you talked to them about it? do they help you work thru your fears or do you sit with them by yourself as your out climbing? Also, what HAS helped you in the past? Are you still using those techniques? And to the others... Do you notice a pattern in your level of fear? Like...stressed out in other areas of your life=harder to manage fear? When I posted about my accident someone wrote the following which I try to remember often.... "Breathe. Accept. Dont Ruminate. Enjoy now. Seek tomorrow. Dont project the past into the future. Breathe!" I hope there is something that has been said in this thread which helps even in the smallest way. carolyn Quote
Dru Posted August 20, 2002 Posted August 20, 2002 here is a TR about a scary runout I did recently and sort of what ran through my mind and how i dealt... Quote
johnny Posted August 20, 2002 Posted August 20, 2002 Thought I would throw my two cents worth in.... Since moving to NC i have had some trouble with fear/leading/mind control. I have backed off a number of climbs, some of which were well within my ability. Thing is that most of the rock out here is so damn steep that it scares the crap out of me. Just about everything over 5.7 is quite steep, very exposed and it intimidated me. What I am slowly learning is that steep routes with good gear don't have to be so scary; the fall will be clean and you know exactly how good the gear is below you. If it gets too bad, put something in and by all means rest on it. This ain't no competition. If your partner gives you more than good natured flack for forsaking style for safety then get a new partner!!! This goes for easy routes too....hang on a piece if you feel good about it just to know that it is in fact good. to repeat: this ain't no competition! Somebody said something about changing partners. I have been climbing with a wide range of people since moving here and it has helped tremendously. Some are much better than me, some are just beginning to learn. I have learned much about climbing from all of them. I feel very safe with a couple of them; they are comfortable leading hard .11's on gear and I get to follow and think about stances and placements while cleaning. When I am with someone who has less experience, I have to lead. Just like SK said, I tend to challenge myself more and try harder things. Exception: the couple of things I have backed off from, I returned with someone more experienced than I and mooched some of their confidance and knowledge of the route. Moral: use your friends for all they are worth and allow them to do the same, you will all benefit!!!! Isn't that that what climbing is all about?? Having kickass times with friends while trying to improve yurself??????? Quote
sk Posted August 20, 2002 Posted August 20, 2002 quote: Originally posted by carolyn: And to the others... Do you notice a pattern in your level of fear? Like...stressed out in other areas of your life=harder to manage fear? When I posted about my accident someone wrote the following which I try to remember often.... "Breathe. Accept. Dont Ruminate. Enjoy now. Seek tomorrow. Dont project the past into the future. Breathe!" I hope there is something that has been said in this thread which helps even in the smallest way. carolyn Carolyn_ verry cool quote, thanks for sharing!!! I had an experience recently that I think speaks to your question. I was camping with my family and some friends at smith. We had the kids along and were trying to climb. It was hot and the kids were not tolerating it well at all. They were whinney and not behaving well. We got 5 climbs in the first day, including my first sport lead at smith. Then we tried to climb again the next day. I woke up pissed off and everything just went down hill from there. I ended up backing off a lead that I am pretty sure I could do under diffrent curcumstances. I clipped the first bolt and froze. I couldn't go. I was so angry at myself I cried and the whole thing JUST SUCKED! Generaly, I have learnd to copartmenalize my life and focus on what is infront of me. But sometimes I just can't get my head into the game, and thats it... time to go home. So yes stress in my life can effect my climbing. But it is very situational. sk Quote
Winter Posted August 20, 2002 Posted August 20, 2002 I guess I'll add my 2 cents. Earlier this year I was tied into a rope team of 3 on Liberty Ridge on rather mellow but exposed and very icy terrain. The leader didn't place pro, missed a step and shot down towards the Carbon glacier taking me with him. Luckily our 3rd guy happened to be on a patch of snow and self-arrested. Scary shit. That was at about 12,000 feet, so we had a ways to go over the top. The only way to control the fear was to take every move one step at a time. Focus on the task at hand, think about what you need to do and do it. Once you're committed, I think that's the only way to get it done. On a slightly different note, we all said after the fact that guys somehow have an ability to shake of life-threatening situations and treat each other like dirt just as they did the minute before. The question, however, was whether a woman could keep it together in the same situation. At the risk of being crushed with brutal e-mail and accepting the fact that I am making a completely unjustifiable generalization, does anyone see any difference in the way women (the more emotional sex) handle crisis situations in the moutains? Quote
carolyn Posted August 20, 2002 Posted August 20, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Winter: At the risk of being crushed with brutal e-mail and accepting the fact that I am making a completely unjustifiable generalization, does anyone see any difference in the way women (the more emotional sex) handle crisis situations in the moutains? In my limited personal experience in the mountains, but my broader experience working with girls/women in adventure settings, I think females often deal with stressful/crisis situations DIFFERENTLY, but not necessarily better or worse than a male. I think its probably easy enough for either sex to get thru a crisis situation...the difficult part is the aftermath of the mind (ie/once you are down from the mountain). When I had my accident I was pretty calm and collected. My male partner was actually the one kind of freaking out. Afterwards, I was the one one who was kind of freaking out...and he is fine (or so he says). When we talk about it now he doesnt seem to understand why I still have fear. Part of it I contribute to the fact that he didnt experience what I did (physically). The other part is just his personality. I try not to generalize it and say, "typical guy", because that is only going to make climbing with him difficult. Instead we just acknowledge, accept and respect the fact that we are going to deal with things differently. I could go on and on about this subject, but I will spare shaky and the rest of you...maybe another thread? Quote
Rick_Sharpless Posted August 20, 2002 Posted August 20, 2002 One of my frequent alpine partners is a woman. FWIW, she stays cool while the S(*& hits the fan, for her or others, but may have a good emote afterwards, when she or others is in a a position of safety. But she definitely meets one of my prime partner criteria, is this a person I want at the other end of a rope from me when the chips are down. Quote
allison Posted August 20, 2002 Posted August 20, 2002 quote: Originally posted by sk: I think I may need hiking lessons. I would MUCH rather climb 3rd class(haven't done 4th) than trudge arround on dirt trails. On dirt I slide , fall on my ass and struggle. 3rd class up or down I feel solid and happy to be making progress. any suggestions? besides the obvious, that I am an idiot Nonsense, you don't need hiking lessons. I think what a lot of run-of-the-mill hikers fail to see is that there's a whole big big world of experience between a dirt trail and 5th class. Many will sneer and derisively say it's 'scrambling' and that is part of it. The Wilderness is yours to sample, and there's a range of difficulty from first class to fifth. If you want to broaden your horizons as a hiker, look at a map, find a spot you think looks good, and GO THERE. It wil challenge you, you'll probably have almost no beta, probably no trail, and definitely no crowds. It's a rich and exciting experience, well outside of on-trail hiking, and in many ways closer to alpine climbing than anything else. And it's really, really fun. Flame suit on. Quote
sk Posted August 20, 2002 Posted August 20, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Winter: I guess I'll add my 2 cents. Earlier this year I was tied into a rope team of 3 on Liberty Ridge on rather mellow but exposed and very icy terrain. The leader didn't place pro, missed a step and shot down towards the Carbon glacier taking me with him. Luckily our 3rd guy happened to be on a patch of snow and self-arrested. Scary shit. That was at about 12,000 feet, so we had a ways to go over the top. The only way to control the fear was to take every move one step at a time. Focus on the task at hand, think about what you need to do and do it. Once you're committed, I think that's the only way to get it done. On a slightly different note, we all said after the fact that guys somehow have an ability to shake of life-threatening situations and treat each other like dirt just as they did the minute before. The question, however, was whether a woman could keep it together in the same situation. At the risk of being crushed with brutal e-mail and accepting the fact that I am making a completely unjustifiable generalization, does anyone see any difference in the way women (the more emotional sex) handle crisis situations in the moutains? I don't think that you are wrong.... this is just MY PERSONAL oppinion, but I think though a group of women would handle that situation VERY DIFFRENTLY, they could handle it JUST AS WELL. It would just not be how you would handle it. Men and women are diffrent, bottom line, no two ways about it. There are things that I will do with my best friend that I would never have fun doing with my husband. Quote
shaky Posted August 20, 2002 Author Posted August 20, 2002 All right folks. Been quiet, letting you parse out your experiences and advice. First of all, thanks for your input and experiences - A lot to sift through.. So - more info, and things that do work, if inconsistently. Yeah, I've done the mileage on easy terrain, and (infrequently) take jumpers on bolts and gear. I think that the thing that works best, tho', is a 'real' fall - going for it with no consideration for the consequence- suddenly I'm in the air, then I stop, safe. Unfortunately, that's the catch-22 - I need to be able to seek that place more consciously. Funny thing - the only/best fall I took this weekend was on a 5.7 - total brain-fart move. So, other things that work - redpointing - because of that fear/risk-aversion - I tend to do routes second try or later - when I can get to the point of focussing soley on the moves - then the beauty re-arises, and the hooting in joy begins- I've pulled .12 on bolts and low-.11 on gear that way. Positive visualization when I'm away from the route works, too. Reinforcing those visualizations when I get to the route helps - sequences, gear beta. I pulled a crack recently simply because I knew that #7 rock went in right below the crux, would hold a bus, and that there was nothing left for me to worry about. However, it is important to me to be more than the 'best second in the world' Sure, I did Freeway last year -awesome route, pulled everything but the crux, but a slightly hollow victory because I couldn't call any of those pitches my own. Yeah, I have some of the greatest climbing partners in the world. But then, I may be biased. Competition and the like isn't a big deal, and I don't have anyone yelling and calling me a pussy as I stand shaking on route. I am trying to expand my circle, and have picked up a few new this year. I'm pretty picky about partners, and it definitely deals more with attitude than experience. So I'm actually happy to have expanded the fold a bit. One thing - and I think a few of you may have touched on it- is being able to let go of setbacks or external stresses - for instance, when climbing with the gf, her mood affects me, as I take too much responsibility for how she feels/performs. Likewise, occasionally an external event can rattle me - a good example was climbing this weekend when a climber next to us called 'Safe!' to his partner on the ground - 3 of us on the ground, due to our experience/standard training heard 'take', and proceded to nearly rush the partner on the ground as he unclipped his belay device - we quickly resolve our misunderstanding of the situation - but I couldn't let it go - I've been there- I've seen other stupid shit. All I could see was a person falling and dying. And it kept me frazzled into the next day. Gaack. One thing I do try to think of is the baseball pitcher - even after he has just thrown a pitch that was hit for a home run, all he can do is forget it and concentrate on the next pitch. I gotta find ways to do the same -concentrate on the next pitch. What else - Anyone else played with self-hypnosis or other formal mind-work - any experiences - yes, your results may vary. Damn, I make long posts. [ 08-19-2002, 07:43 PM: Message edited by: shaky ] Quote
sk Posted August 20, 2002 Posted August 20, 2002 verry informaly I learned relaxation exercises in theater when younger. I still use some of those skills, but they are hard to "teach" over the internet. I find yoga verry useful although I am not "trained" in that either. Are you looking for something you can do on a regulare basis? or just right before you climb? Quote
shaky Posted August 20, 2002 Author Posted August 20, 2002 Alright, looking for some assistance here, as I'm sure I'm not alone in this... Several years back, I had a climbing accident, took a grounder from what was essentially death-fall height. Since then, I essentially shake on lead to some extent. This fear response can then affect me mentally, thus shutting me down with a cascadng effect of bad visions, defeatest thoughts, anger/frustration. Not to say that I have good days - I've still climbed hard, and often. It's too much a part of me, I've been climbing over 15 years, and I ain't walking away. I love so much of the sport - the challenge, the camaraderie, the places, the stories we generate. But this fear and the accompanying lack of self confidence keeps me from setting big goals, seriously hurt my consistency as a climber, makes me hesitate to ask partners to do long routes, as I may not be able to swing leads, and generally keeps me feeling like I may be a burden on my partners (a somewhat false image, but let's go with it for now.) The issue here is either how do I suppress that fear response, or replace it with another response that allows me to keep moving without the concern of the fall as a consequence? I've read a bit, had some professional help, including a bit of EMDR therapy, which has shown success with PTSD sufferers - I had some small breakthroughs with it, but the effectiveness seems to have worn off a bit. So, who else has done work on this, and how do you cope with the fear inherant with the sport? Dammit, I want to do hard slab again. Anyway, any sincere advice, referrals, or experiences are greatly appreciated. Quote
sketchfest Posted August 20, 2002 Posted August 20, 2002 I don't know if this will work for you, but it helped me after I took a grounder from 20' after all my gear zippered. I was good to go go as a second and on tr, but had no faith in the gear no matter how bomber the placement seemed to be. What I did was get two of my friends together and set up a top-rope on a pitch that was easily protected with gear. I then tied into the tr and into the sharp end and began to climb. As I climbed I placed gear and the tr was there only to keep me off the deck (VERY loose)at about mid height of the climb I forced myself to climb a few moves above my last piece and let go. By working this way a couple of things happened: 1) I learned to place gear with more precision 2) I trusted the gear that I placed 3) I re-built my confidience on lead Like I said, I don't know all the details of what you had going on, but this worked pretty good for me. Hope you can use some of it. Quote
Dru Posted August 20, 2002 Posted August 20, 2002 shaky i was about 6 inches and a lucky catch of a shrub at 30mph away from a 600 foot fall unroped last autumn... i didnt climb for about 2 months after that, then slowly got back in to it just doing a bit at a time following routes, sport climbing and bouldering helped, as did doing mellow climbing trips with friends and smoking the good herb... it took me about 3 trips of doing nothing but seconding 5.7s and backing off 5.8 leads to get my head back... you should try and concentrate on what you like about climbing aside from grades or hard runouts...just doing mellow climbing and having fun with friends...enjoying the post climb beer and horsecock... [ 08-19-2002, 12:54 PM: Message edited by: Dru ] Quote
Mr._Natural Posted August 20, 2002 Posted August 20, 2002 quote: There are things that I will do with my best friend that I would never have fun doing with my husband. Quote
Dru Posted August 20, 2002 Posted August 20, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Mr. Natural: quote: There are things that I will do with my best friend that I would never have fun doing with my husband. throwing panties at tom jones watching the chippendales do the full monty etc. ? Quote
texplorer Posted August 20, 2002 Posted August 20, 2002 I must agree with the changing partners bit. After having sex with a new partner you feel like a great conqueror and one of the two great needs in life have been fufilled (sex and climbing). After that you can focus on climbing and not think about the runnout. I don't know how I deal with fear. I just feel like the guy in "Apocalype Now" when all the explosions and bullets are everywhere he is more concerned about the surfing. In my screwed up brain I guess I realized that being scared never makes the situation in actuallity any more dangerous or not. Therefore, being scared is an unreasonable response. If I think I can't do a climb for some reason I just don't get on it. When I do feel a little tension from exposure or runnout or whatever I get really excited. I alway want to lead those pitches on a climb. I don't guess this really helps you guys though. I like spicy climbs and spicy food. ymmmmm Quote
sk Posted August 20, 2002 Posted August 20, 2002 not quite I did however do my first lead with my best friend christ how old do you think I am????/ My grandmother threw her panties at tom jones sheesh Maybe I would throw my thong at the lead singer of Nicleback though Quote
daytripper Posted August 20, 2002 Posted August 20, 2002 There are a few things that I've found helpful especially with regards to longer or alpine rock routes. 1) Learn to assess your ability so that a unexpected fall is extremely rare 2) Habitually thump holds to test integrity 3) Learn to trust your gear placements by occasionally aid climbing 4) Focus on the moment, things you can control and your immediate neighborhood 5) Ditch partners who aren't okay with your climbing style Quote
Thinker Posted August 20, 2002 Posted August 20, 2002 quote: Originally posted by daytripper: There are a few things that I've found helpful especially with regards to longer or alpine rock routes. 1) Learn to assess your ability so that a unexpected fall is extremely rare 2) Habitually thump holds to test integrity 3) Learn to trust your gear placements by occasionally aid climbing 4) Focus on the moment, things you can control and your immediate neighborhood 5) Ditch partners who aren't okay with your climbing style sounds like my last relationship....... Quote
Thinker Posted August 21, 2002 Posted August 21, 2002 quote: Originally posted by texplorer: I must agree with the changing partners bit. After having sex with a new partner you feel like a great conqueror and one of the two great needs in life have been fufilled (sex and climbing). After that you can focus on climbing and not think about the runnout. I don't know why SOs insist on bringing up some of the most controversial topics while on the approach to some of the best climbs. Things like "Why did you make that face last night when I started talking about: getting more serious/ my sister coming to live with us for 6 months/ all that time you spend climbing with your friends when you could be climbing with me? Why did you have to be such a bastard when you were looking at the girl who: was cuter/ has a better rack (more cams)/ pulls harder moves...than I do? All I really want to do is meditate a little bit while racking up, give the doll a kiss and lift off. REally don't need all that extra crap floating around in my consciousness when all I want to do is climb. Sometimes it's better just to head off with (platonic) friends for climbing parners.....but of course the benefits at the summit aren't as good that way. ah.........tradeoffs [ 08-20-2002, 12:17 PM: Message edited by: Thinker ] Quote
Dru Posted August 21, 2002 Posted August 21, 2002 quote: Originally posted by sk: not quite I did however do my first lead with my best friend christ how old do you think I am????/ My grandmother threw her panties at tom jones sheesh Maybe I would throw my thong at the lead singer of Nicleback though Nickleback = "bread rock". Quote
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