Kerry in Vietnam

[RobBob]

While Kerry tries to build the war hero image and is putting his 'band of brothers' on tour, the right is of course countering with a lot of information showing Kerry in an extremely unflattering light during his 4 months in Vietnam.

 

Unfortunately if you just listen to the major networks or read newspapers, you are left with the impression that this is politics as usual. But if you dig deeper, there is actually a lot of information, in the form of written and filmed interviews with veterans who were right there with him---who saw the action that he was subsequently decorated for, who gave him medical treatment, etc. Damn if those accounts aren't specific and indicting.

 

For what it's worth,I've been hearing this kind of chatter since the primaries, from several different vets of varying polical views. Yes, it's true that a lot of vets feel betrayed by Kerry, seeing his antiwar rhetoric after his tour as behavior akin to Jane Fonda's. But the firsthand accounts, from peers and superiors, of his experience and conduct during combat versus his own account of the same are pretty damning. The conclusion that I have to draw after wading through some of the first-hand accounts is: On his war record, Kerry is a liar and a poseur.

 

No question that Bush was playing fratboy in the TX guard while the war was going on. (And I am personally not a Bush fan.) But that doesn't somehow offset what appears to be an egregious falsehood that Kerry is riding high on in his campaign. If his record is as many of his peers are stating, this is an insult to all those whose efforts there were heroic.

 

Dig around for yourself, and look at the personal testimonies of those who were there.

[eternalX]

I have to somewhat agree. Kerry's 4 purple hearts in four months and the whole swift vets thing has swayed my opinion on his character. I don't really care about his anti-war protests and actually respect him for that part (and his anti-war protests are surely playing a role in the minds of the swift vets, for example). At to people like gotterdamnrag or whatever his name is, this is the only thing that matters. My dad is career military and I think they have been so, well, I don't want to say brainwashed, but career military definitely place a large emphasis on the quality of character and they have somewhat narrowly defined vantage points of such traits (for example, I don't think my father would ever approve of disagreeing with the president as he's the current leader, especially during a war..it's all a chain of command thing, you do what you're told, etc). And then you get all the military types emailing each other about how bad Kerry is and some of it truth, some of it fiction, but it gets them angry and i imagine that's why we see such outlashes by gotterdamnrag.

 

ANYWAY

 

What it comes down to me in this election is selfishness though. I care most about three things and Kerry's more likely to deliver than Bush in all three. They are:

 

1. Defending the Constitution - When I think Bush, I think Ashcroft and it makes me sick. Trampling on civil rights and the Patriot Act...ugh. Gay rights is another thing. I mean if Bush is opposed to gay marriage, fine, but to even suggest that banning it belongs on the same level as freedom of speech clearly shows that he has no idea where I think our priorities lie.

 

2. War - I think Kerry will do whatever he can to keep us out of it. Pure and simple. Sorry but I don't have a strong belief that terrorists are as powerful as the media and the administration likes to portray and I think good intelligence and special ops will be better suited for that task. Our military is in something like 92 countries right now. It's time to start bringing them home. I don't mean pcik up and leave Iraq. We are there and we have to stay the course. I think Kerry and Bush agree on that. I just don't want to do the same thing again in another country.

 

3. Economy - Republicans always say we'll fix this later, but it's been 34 years since they've ever had a balanced budget and there are no signs that Bush will fix this. He's not even talking about it. I'm not a democrat, but at least they understand how you can't spend more than you take in.

 

cheers

[larrythellama]

Well one thing that I know is that Kerry promised to come back and windsurf in the gorge b4 July was over and he failed to do so. Bozo the Clown gets me vote this year.

 

Robobobobo gimme some idea in what you are specifically talking about?? Did Kerry actaully hurt himself while wanking or sumpin??

 

One more thing that makes me dislike Bushco is that my cousin is preggers and her husband is leacing for Iraq(army) and wont be there for the birth, he applied for a deferment and it got denied, yet Cheny had 7 deferments in Vietnam and had no reason to do so other then he was/is a rich fat ass nancy boy. Now that really pisses me off.

[Greg_W]

3. Economy - Republicans always say we'll fix this later, but it's been 34 years since they've ever had a balanced budget and there are no signs that Bush will fix this. He's not even talking about it. I'm not a democrat, but at least they understand how you can't spend more than you take in.

 

cheers

 

Dude, if you look back, the Democrats have controlled Congress for about 26 of the last 34 years. So, you might want to take another look at whether or not they "understand how you can't spend more than you take in." I, personally, don't think the Republican-led Congress has done much to be fiscally responsible, either, but don't think the Dems are budget-conscious spendthrifts.

 

Greg_W

[gotterdamerung]

Issues are issues and if a presidential candidate wants to try to raise his military service as a sign of his character then he deserves to be judged by that information he presents. In Kerry's case his career in the military was a flop, his subsequent actions brought great discredit to his service. His current attempt to play up those things out like he has an edge because of his service are true indications of his character. Quite frankly I believe the guy would do ANYTHING to become president including selling out his own integrity. No one in the servive wants him or his purple hearts running anything. The biggest issue on the plate is Iraq and Kerry will damn each and every person serving in Iraq right now with his politics.

[b-rock]

Hmmmm, what do you think GregW?

 

Shares of Non-Social Security Federal Spending Paid for by Borrowing

Fiscal 1947 to 2003 (projected)

Truman none

Eisenhower 3%

Kennedy-Johnson 6%

Nixon-Ford 14%

Carter 13%

Reagan 25%

Bush I 28%

Clinton 6%

Bush II, fy 2002 23%

Bush II, fy 2003p 32%

Note: in Clinton’s first term, 15% of non-Social Security spending was financed by borrowing. In his second term, the government ran on-budget surpluses.

Prior to the Reagan administration, the level of deficit financed spending was much lower.

 

http://www.ctj.org/html/debt0603.htm

[Greg_W]

Hmmmm, what do you think GregW?

 

Shares of Non-Social Security Federal Spending Paid for by Borrowing

Fiscal 1947 to 2003 (projected)

Truman none

Eisenhower 3%

Kennedy-Johnson 6%

Nixon-Ford 14%

Carter 13%

Reagan 25%

Bush I 28%

Clinton 6%

Bush II, fy 2002 23%

Bush II, fy 2003p 32%

Note: in Clinton’s first term, 15% of non-Social Security spending was financed by borrowing. In his second term, the government ran on-budget surpluses.

Prior to the Reagan administration, the level of deficit financed spending was much lower.

 

http://www.ctj.org/html/debt0603.htm

 

B-rock, who is in charge of the Federal Budget?

[b-rock]

The Republican controlled Congress, which typically institutes the President's proposed budget?

[eternalX]

The biggest issue on the plate is Iraq and Kerry will damn each and every person serving in Iraq right now with his politics.

 

I so love comments like this. Funny. I heard yesterday that homeland security was the biggest issue right now. Good thing you're on the pulse.

 

Gotter - One thing you have to realize is that you live in a very skewed world. The things that are important to you, your buddies, and your family aren't the same as in other places. Living in Seattle, i can tell you that i'm totally skewed too. We live in such a liberal city it's sometimes hard to know where we fit in with the rest of the country. I mean when Bush brought up the gay rights ban i thought..."That's it. He's done. How would anybody believe that gays don't have the right to marry?!" Like 20% of prime time tv focuses on a gay man or woman. But turns out that like 75% of the country agrees with Bush (whereas probably 90% of Seattle does not). I was completly shocked.

 

Anyway, my brother just got back from a year in Afghanistan and i'm pretty sure he's voting for "anyone other than Bush" so that seems to cancel your "everyone in the service will back Bush" thought.

Edited August 4, 2004 by eternalX

[eternalX]

3. Economy - Republicans always say we'll fix this later, but it's been 34 years since they've ever had a balanced budget and there are no signs that Bush will fix this. He's not even talking about it. I'm not a democrat, but at least they understand how you can't spend more than you take in.

 

cheers

 

Dude, if you look back, the Democrats have controlled Congress for about 26 of the last 34 years. So, you might want to take another look at whether or not they "understand how you can't spend more than you take in." I, personally, don't think the Republican-led Congress has done much to be fiscally responsible, either, but don't think the Dems are budget-conscious spendthrifts.

 

Greg_W

 

Good point...Clinton somehow did it though.

[gotterdamerung]

I understand that Seattle is not exactly like everywhere else in the world. I understand that the climbing community in general is a subculture made up of a lot of people that would prefer to not invest themselves in anything that detracts from their drugs of choice. Talking politics on the internet is a far cry from investing yourself in the real world beyond the emerald city. Ironically enough they call this the emerald city as well. Only we take mortar and rocket fire and my morning commute is a UH60 ride.

 

HL SEC and Iraq are completely intertwined. I don't think it's Christian fundamentalists who are trying to kill us.

 

I didn't grow up in Washington and I am glad I didn't. I come from a conservative state, and most of my friends are from the south.

 

Your brother is one voice in a crowd and there are certainly those that won't vote for Bush in the end, but the majority certainly will. I am sure there are reasons why he feels the way he does and honestly I understand quite well. Glad he is home safe.

[rbw1966]

In Kerry's case his career in the military was a flop, his subsequent actions brought great discredit to his service.

 

First, Kerry's military service cannot be seriously considered a 'career'. Secondly, his service shows more integrity than Bush's evasive behavior and LACK of service (and we won't even get into Cheney's behavior). Thirdly, how does protesting a war you served in discredit your service? I would argue that it reflected honorably on his service as he actually went to Vietnam, saw what was going on on the ground and came home to attempt to prevent greater loss of life to the soldiers he served with.

 

I'm no fan of either Bush or Kerry, however Bush has shown that he will stoop to any length of dissembly to further his goals.

 

I'll never understand this attitude that disagreement with your government is unpatriotic.

[eternalX]

I grew up in the south as well. Alabama to be exact. Not that it matters, but i've lived here for about 4 years.

 

The thing that's hard for me to understand is that even if Bush and Kerry did the exact same thing in Iraq and Kerry had a better plan for the domestic arena, i'm sure you and your friends will all still vote Bush. Would that be a correct assessment?

[gotterdamerung]

Kerry is not the right man for the job. Simply put. You all defend him because you have no one else to stand for you. I am not really defending Bush, but I am putting it out that Kerry is a liar, a coward, and someone I will serve under.

[Alasdair]

So he is exactly like bush. So what the hell do you care which one is elected.

[gotterdamerung]

Domestic politics seem far and away from me here man. I think the genie is out of the bottle (Radical Islam) and I am going to vote for the man who most represents our interests of banging heads with them at all costs. If another 9/11 happens (and it will) I am sure it will really bake all your noodles when and if Kerry gets in office. His response will be aenemic at best.

[rbw1966]

Hmmmm. . .Kerry served in Vietnam but is a coward. Bush served cocaine (I might remind you of your critical attitude towards drug use) and the closest he came to combat was falling off his bike yet he is brave?

 

Am I missing some logical connection here?

[eternalX]

in regards to my brother, I think he just got annoyed with the whole "you're going home next month, no wait, next month, no wait, next month, <repeat for 1.5 years>". Complete lack of organization and communication according to him. I don't think he would have minded if they one, got the assignment correct (they shipped all their helis and whatnot to serve in iraq. Once unpacked they decided they should go to afghanistan instead), or they just would've been more transparent (obviously you know more than a month out that you aren't going to be sending your troops home) and honest with their soldiers and plans. It might have hurt him more because his first child was born about 2 months after he shipped out.

[rbw1966]

That type of behavior is endemic to the military eternalX. I went through the same thing 20 years ago.

[b-rock]

His response will be aenemic at best.

 

Oh BS, what do you base this on?

 

Better to invade a country for $100+ billion that poses no threat to us than to concentrate on places like N Korea and Iran that are building nuclear weapons? Better that than to spend that money to shore up domestic security in the form of better intelligence and safer seaports and airports where the real threat of 'another 9/11' is?

 

[Alasdair]

Domestic politics seem far and away from me here man. I think the genie is out of the bottle (Radical Islam) and I am going to vote for the man who most represents our interests of banging heads with them at all costs. If another 9/11 happens (and it will) I am sure it will really bake all your noodles when and if Kerry gets in office. His response will be aenemic at best.

 

Well I cant say bushies reaction impressed me. Bringing down the Taliban was good. Invading Iraq pissed off most of the arab world and increased membership of Al qaida and the hatred toward america. In addition bushies continued support of Israel at all costs will guarantee more 911 type attacks.

Edited August 4, 2004 by Alasdair

[eternalX]

Kerry is not the right man for the job. Simply put. You all defend him because you have no one else to stand for you. I am not really defending Bush, but I am putting it out that Kerry is a liar, a coward, and someone I will serve under.

 

Well, I already told you why I'll vote for him (despite my earlier thoughts, i am not going to vote libertarian like i planned on only because i so want Bush out). His views on my three main issues are much more closely aligned with mine. I'm less concerned about history (which to be honest, don't seem all that differnt to me...6 of 1, half dozen of the other) or character. I'm an American and damnit, i'm selfish.

 

Cheers

[Greg_W]

The Republican controlled Congress, which typically institutes the President's proposed budget?

 

Congress is in charge of budget and expenditures. Now, take another look at your list and ask yourself who was controlling Congress under any given Administration. You can't just take it at face-value.

[b-rock]

GregW, I think you missed my point, that by and large, Congress adopts the president's budget plan...

[gotterdamerung]

Not every man that serves in combat is a hero and not every man that chooses not to is a coward. Kerry feels that the 4 months he doddered through his command somehow give him voice. The average infantry private in Vietnam probably had more common sense than that man. Bush was a son of privelege without a doubt, and Cheney certainly has some things to answer for.

 

If this is your line of reasoning though shouldn't we simply ask every congressman, senator, ambassador, political lackey to sign their own sons and daughters up for combat duty as a prerequsite for their leadership? Is there any real answer? Maybe our political system is a failing experiment as time goes on. Maybe this is the way it is, was, and always will be. My gut feeling tells me Kerry is a loser and no amount of intellectualizing can change that.

 

At any rate thanks for the conversations and opinions. I'm going to get some sleep. The days are getting longer and longer as time goes by.