ketch Posted June 16, 2004 Posted June 16, 2004 So I was just visiting a texas climbing board (you would think those folk could talk some shit, man their drier than RC.com). Any way there was one post that was a good question. With the way modern ethics are going can you "project" a trad crack? Is it ethical to go send a new route if someone else claims it as their project? I know in the sport world you can claim somethin. Used to be in the trad world it was whoever got the FA. Where are we now? Quote
Dustin_B Posted June 16, 2004 Posted June 16, 2004 can you post a link to the site? I have no opinion on your topic question however. Quote
Bug Posted June 16, 2004 Posted June 16, 2004 First come, first serve. Cracks are not created by anybody. Linking a line of holds is a specific set of choices. Quote
ketch Posted June 17, 2004 Author Posted June 17, 2004 Ya I felt like first come first served was it too. DB This is the site I was checkan out. Mostly dry but look around there's a couple good threads. Quote
Dru Posted June 17, 2004 Posted June 17, 2004 first come first served is fine if its a clean splitter in an obvious area but lets say i go out and find some nice crack that in obvious squamish style is full of dirt and moss and it takes me 4 8-hour days over 2 weekends to scrub the thing clean. then when i come back on the 5th day, 3rd weekend by now, for the send some asshole says "snooze ya lose i just climbed this crack".... um no. i put in the effort of investing time to clean it, you didn't. i get to make the first ascent within a length of time proportional to the investment of effort. offenders to this rule will discover what it feels like to have your colon wire brushed with your own head. Quote
fenderfour Posted June 17, 2004 Posted June 17, 2004 first come first served is fine if its a clean splitter in an obvious area but lets say i go out and find some nice crack that in obvious squamish style is full of dirt and moss and it takes me 4 8-hour days over 2 weekends to scrub the thing clean. then when i come back on the 5th day, 3rd weekend by now, for the send some asshole says "snooze ya lose i just climbed this crack".... um no. i put in the effort of investing time to clean it, you didn't. i get to make the first ascent within a length of time proportional to the investment of effort. offenders to this rule will discover what it feels like to have your colon wire brushed with your own head. I think that this is worthy, but how do you let people know? Do you just spray the area and let everyone know wht you are up to? Do you leave a note? Drop a monster Stuzer at the belay? Quote
Dru Posted June 17, 2004 Posted June 17, 2004 little bit of red flaging tape stuck in the crack at the bottom on a wirebrush or something and removed when climb has been redpointed is the most common method. Quote
ashw_justin Posted June 17, 2004 Posted June 17, 2004 What if you just snake it, but don't tell anyone. Is that ethical? Quote
fern Posted June 17, 2004 Posted June 17, 2004 what is at stake here? getting your name in a guidebook? big whoop Quote
ketch Posted June 17, 2004 Author Posted June 17, 2004 Dru, I would tend to agree. Here in the San Juans there is nothing ready made. If ya wanta climb it ya gotta garden it. I would be bent if someone jumped my project (for that I'm safe, nobody comes here to find new exciting rock ). It's also been a long time since I found a new line that didn't need some work. So what is a reasonable time? Do we just flag em with tape and send it anyway if the tape is faded? Quote
Dru Posted June 17, 2004 Posted June 17, 2004 don't clean anything that you can't climb and you never have to worry. Quote
ketch Posted June 17, 2004 Author Posted June 17, 2004 So what your saying is mixing style and rap scrubbin new routes is not good Quote
Dru Posted June 17, 2004 Posted June 17, 2004 no but i'm saying you should scrub routes that are within your theoretical ability level not things that are way too hard for you. most of the angst about staying off projects comes when people who normally climb like 5.10 camp out on a hard 11 for instance for months to years on end never quite sending it and requesting that no one else try it. for instance todd skinner bolted some projects at wild iris and 7 years later had not been able to redpoint any of them. yet he still got all upset when jason campbell came along and climbed 3 of them in a week. thats why i say the length of time the route can be a project is proportional to the effort invested in cleaning and/or bolting it. the less effort invested the less time it stays an exclusive project. it's all about respecting the other climber... if you are a good climber, you will respect others who want to clean and climb stuff. and if you clean stuff you should either hurry up and climb it or admit you can't and offer it as an open project. Quote
jonthomp Posted June 17, 2004 Posted June 17, 2004 it's all about respecting the other climber... if you are a good climber, you will respect others who want to clean and climb stuff. and if you clean stuff you should either hurry up and climb it or admit you can't and offer it as an open project. Part of the joy of putting up new routes is allowing others to enjoy the creation one has finished. The cleaning, bolting, etc. is often just dirty, hard work that should be rewarded by a reasonble amount of time get the FA. Skinner's reaction and others who like to camp on a project far longer than their prep efforts warrant strikes me as nothing more than territorial pissing and a sign of an ego that can't admit there's better climbers out there. Dru is right on the mark on this one. Quote
lancegranite Posted June 17, 2004 Posted June 17, 2004 The amount of energy involved in cleaning cracks is often much greater than the eventual ascent. Just let those dudes warp out get real dirty. Quote
Szyjakowski Posted June 18, 2004 Posted June 18, 2004 it depends if you have to scrub it or not. yeah but what if it was sent before you decided the moss and dirt made it harder and needed to be removed. cracks are most definitely project-able.... just don't hang any dumb red slings from them. Quote
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted June 21, 2004 Posted June 21, 2004 "With the way modern ethics are going can you "project" a trad crack?" We're all out of grade school, here, and it's rock climbing, not golf. Can't you do whatever the fuck you want with regard to ascent tactics? Quote
Billygoat Posted June 22, 2004 Posted June 22, 2004 Dru, I would tend to agree. Here in the San Juans there is nothing ready made. If ya wanta climb it ya gotta garden it. I would be bent if someone jumped my project (for that I'm safe, nobody comes here to find new exciting rock ). Oh, I wouldn't be so sure of that Ketch...I have been quietly scoping some of those lines you have over there on Orcatraz... I've already sent everything over here on Slopez. Now Blakely, that's another matter... Quote
ketch Posted June 22, 2004 Author Posted June 22, 2004 Ya goat, it's kinda funny I have a few projects goin here (mostly tryin to get in good with the owner) in the mean time I'm workin a new line over on cypress. One of these days we should get together and try the same lines. Quote
Billygoat Posted June 22, 2004 Posted June 22, 2004 That's right! Cypress does look good from the water If the access issues get you down, bop on over to the 'pez and I'll hook you with some local lines. BTW have you noticed that immense wall of dihedrals along the south shore of ...... Quote
EWolfe Posted June 22, 2004 Posted June 22, 2004 Leave the last crux unscrubbed for the poor bastards. As well as a nice run-out exit slab (nicely gravelled and mossed) Quote
EWolfe Posted June 22, 2004 Posted June 22, 2004 can you post a link to the site? I have no opinion on your topic question however. Classic conservative, BTW. Quote
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