Poseur Posted July 31, 2002 Posted July 31, 2002 Can't resist a page top... ....Muir on Saturday Quote
Cpt.Caveman Posted July 31, 2002 Posted July 31, 2002 Oh Poseur is back eh C'mon how was your trip Quote
Off_White Posted July 31, 2002 Posted July 31, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Poseur:There are a multitude of corpoations that have been in business during the last 30 years and no rivers have caught on fire and no lakes have spit out its fish on the shoreline.[/QB]While I can't think of any high profile burning rivers in recent times in this country, I'll wager they've happened in the developing world, which is inhabited by the same large corporations as operate here. If I were a dilgent researcher rather than a shoot from the hip blabberer I'd provide examples. I know fish kills from industrial pollution and spills are a regular occurence. Anybody wanna have a fish fry with halibut caught in Commencement Bay in Tacoma? That said, I do think these things have gotten much better in the US over the last 30 years. For me, its not about blanket condemnation of corporations, its about understanding what they do and how they work. A corporation's reason for being is to make a return on investment for its shareholders. If environmental protection gets in the way of that profit, the corporation wants to get out of the protection requirement. Indeed, it's their mandate to try and do whatever possible to maximize that return on investment. This is why manufacturing moves to where labor is cheaper and regulation is lax, it makes more money. The environmental protection piece of things is imposed on the corporations, either by regulation (hence the EPA) or the more nebulous bit of "market forces" which is mostly about the negative public relations attached to doing business in a manner that revolts your potential consumers. Both forms of control work, but the market force model depends on the various activist groups that focus attention on the hidden atrocities of production. I think those of Libertarian leaning who want the "market" to govern itself should embrace the range of groups that bring pressure to bear on issues that affect the public welfare. Here's the way I think the three main US political theories view the government-business relationship: Right: Government should do whatever it can to promote business and increase its profitablity. Left: Government should act as a buffer between the people and business to provide a balance between profit and public interest. Libertarian: Government should have nothing to do with business whatsoever, either negative or positive. Anyway, I know I'm only fanning the fire on a topic that has nothing to do with climbing and more properly belongs on the political science 101 message board. Perhaps the only hope for ending this thread is having the moderators finally crack and lock it up. Quote
Poseur Posted July 31, 2002 Posted July 31, 2002 Good points OW. Myself, I prefer good old fashioned, straight forward regulation, rather than trying to "incentivize" (pollution credits, etc.) good behavior. Mr. Cavey, my weekend TR goes like this, took a little road trip, got a brand new pair of T2s at a summer closeout rockin price, checked out a hot tip on a new fishin hole (which also gave me a chance to try out the 4WD on my new truck), saw nothin but dinks so I let the dogs fly, then came home and worked on getting fat. Bring on the winter! Until then I pledge to stop stressin the eco/political stuff and instead spend allot of time on the chronic gumbies thread. Quote
Mr._Natural Posted July 31, 2002 Posted July 31, 2002 We had a creek in Bellingham go up in flames though. [ 07-31-2002, 10:25 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Natural ] Quote
Bug Posted August 1, 2002 Posted August 1, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Poseur: Naw, that's just me exhaling... Dude. Yur a bogart. Quote
Bug Posted August 1, 2002 Posted August 1, 2002 "Yes Bug, I can read, can you?" Yes. Quite well thank you. "Just because a river in the midwest caught on fire and fish died in a midwest lake 30 YEARS AGO does not mean all corporations will kill fish or pollute a river." No but it does demonstrate a need for regulation which is THE ONLY REASON those corporations that were guilty are not still dumping that way. Do you know how big Lake Michigan is? Have you studied chemistry? The amount of toxic waste it would have taken to kill all the fish in one of the biggest lakes in the world would bury Seattle and then some. This was not a small matter. "Do you really believe that ALL corporations will do this?" Nope. Just the ones that produce toxic shit. "There are many corporations that do not produce any pollutants - accounting, law firms, etc., and many others that manage their waste responsibly. To throw out two old incidences to smear an entire group within in society is BS." As much as I hate to admit it, Lawers' shit is not toxic waste. You lost all credibility asserting that that was what I was asserting. Your fear tactics are the only ones present. Do you really believe that those are the only two instances? I only listed those two because I saw them with my own eyes. Check your history. The fifties were a industrialist pipe dream. There were no environmental regulations to speak of because we had not reached critical mass yet. By the time we hit the sixties we were seeing acid rain across the Ohio river valley and into the north eastern seaboard. LA was having smog that you couldn't see a city block through. Most of the great lakes were dead or nearly so. Only Lake superior didn't come close to dying. The lower Mississippi could not be used for irigating at one point. It KILLED the crops. These problems were national. That is why political support for environmental cleanup was national even though the large corporations were pouring money into DC to fight the new regulations. I was not the only voter who saw these kinds of abuses. "There are a multitude of corpoations that have been in business during the last 30 years and no rivers have caught on fire and no lakes have spit out its fish on the shoreline." Only because of environmental regulations. The corporate world did not volunteer to clean themselves up. I have spent a great deal of time trying to keep them from pouring arsenic into the big Blackfoot, Hydrogen sulfide gas into West Glacier, and so on. Sadly, there are still many such demonstrations of contemporary disregard for natural resources. "If you are against drilling in ANWR" I most certainly am. "- fine, I can respect, but hysterical and obviously transparent BS scare tactics does a diservice to legitimate efforts to protect the environment - the ol cry wolf story...." Go to Alaska and see for yourself if I am crying wolf. You are ignorant of what is happening up there and being called "best practices". You are ignorant of what motivates large coporations. The environmental degradation I have helped prevent was accomplished by a lot of hard work, research, and careful communications. I would have gotten nowhere otherwise. Something tells me you will be hysterical when you learn the truth. It will mean you are sane. Best wishes for a long healthy life. Quote
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