A Defeat for Ashcroft

[chucK]

No, both these positions are consistent with denying the right to decide what happens to a person's own body.

[Dru]

or, it's ok to kill people (murderers) who don't want to die, but it's not Ok to kill people (terminally ill patients) who actually want to die faster than some disease is killing them?

[Ratboy]

Then they should murder somebody. The gov't will want to kill them then.

[Dru]

murder clubs for would be suicides. last survivor gets the chair!

[JoshK]

The right wing approach to this is about as stupid as their approach to abortion vs. the death penalty. I will at least give the catholic church credit on one thing (though they are fucked up on everything else) they are consistent. They say no abortion, no death penalty. The right wing conveniently defends the life of an embryo that most likely has no sentient (sp?) thought but denies the life of a murderer. I dont like murderers and more than the next guy, but I dont want to live in a society that sanctions state sponsered killing.

 

Another hypocrisy...we dont allow assasinations of foreign leaders who could possibly have killed millions, but we do allow the execution of a murderer who is one of our own citizens. It all just doesn't add up.

[lummox]

we dont allow assasinations of foreign leaders who could possibly have killed millions, but we do allow the execution of a murderer who is one of our own citizens. It all just doesn't add up.

you dont understand the new math.

[markinore]

As much as I enjoy Ashcroft having his ass kicked and as much as I believe states should be able to make their own decisions in this type of issue, I do have qualms about physicians participating in assisted suicide. I believe that the primary goals of physicians should include preserving life and alleviating pain. Sure, a terminally ill individual on high dose pain medication may intentionally or inadvertently overdose, but that is far different from being prescribed something for the explicit purpose of causing death.

 

I guess in a way I have a problem with saying, "I want to die, but I'm too chickenshit to kill myself, so I want a doctor to do it for me." Most people who want to kill themselves can find plenty of ways to do it without involving doctors. True, there may be the occasional individual who is both alert and sane enough to desire death but is too feeble to carry it out. I think such people are rare, and I am not sure we should overturn hundreds if not thousands of years of medical ethics for a minuscule number of such difficult cases.

[Dru]

"physician assisted suicide" does not necessarily mean the doctor is the one who kills. it can be a simple matter of obtaining/prescribing the required drugs for self-administration by the would be suicide.

[fenderfour]

Another hypocrisy...we dont allow assasinations of foreign leaders who could possibly have killed millions, but we do allow the execution of a murderer who is one of our own citizens. It all just doesn't add up.

 

This isn't about numbers. It's about the stability of the country. In theory, the vacuum created by the assasination of a leader can cause some nasty problems for the people living there. Saddam may have been a bastard to his people, but he did keep things orderly.

[rbw1966]

Doctors have a duty to ease suffering and alleviate pain. Whats better: a coherent, terminally-ill patient asking their doctor for medication to assist them in their self-administered suicide (as I understand it, the doctors prescribe the meds and show them how to do it but do not actually administer the lethal dose) or a dying patient lying incoherently in a morphine-induced pool of hallucinations and their own bodily wastes?

 

I'd rather see the former than the latter. I've seen enough of that to last a lifetime.

[catbirdseat]

"physician assisted suicide" does not necessarily mean the doctor is the one who kills. it can be a simple matter of obtaining/prescribing the required drugs for self-administration by the would be suicide.

Dru, that is exactly the case in Oregon. The doctor only provides. The patient administers.

 

I suggest some of you naysayers go rent a copy of the movie Wit, and after watching it in its entirety see if you feel about the subject the same way you do now. Unless you have been confronted with a slow and extremely painful death, you might not know what to think on the subject. I've had to think a lot about this since my wife was diagnosed with terminal cancer four years ago.

[jjd]

Hippocratic Oath -- Classical Version

 

I swear by Apollo Physician and Asclepius and Hygieia and Panaceia and all the gods and goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will fulfil according to my ability and judgment this oath and this covenant:

 

To hold him who has taught me this art as equal to my parents and to live my life in partnership with him, and if he is in need of money to give him a share of mine, and to regard his offspring as equal to my brothers in male lineage and to teach them this art - if they desire to learn it - without fee and covenant; to give a share of precepts and oral instruction and all the other learning to my sons and to the sons of him who has instructed me and to pupils who have signed the covenant and have taken an oath according to the medical law, but no one else.

 

I will apply dietetic measures for the benefit of the sick according to my ability and judgment; I will keep them from harm and injustice.

 

I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody who asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art.

 

I will not use the knife, not even on sufferers from stone, but will withdraw in favor of such men as are engaged in this work.

 

Whatever houses I may visit, I will come for the benefit of the sick, remaining free of all intentional injustice, of all mischief and in particular of sexual relations with both female and male persons, be they free or slaves.

 

What I may see or hear in the course of the treatment or even outside of the treatment in regard to the life of men, which on no account one must spread abroad, I will keep to myself, holding such things shameful to be spoken about.

 

If I fulfil this oath and do not violate it, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and art, being honored with fame among all men for all time to come; if I transgress it and swear falsely, may the opposite of all this be my lot.

 

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/doctors/oath_classical.html

 

Hippocratic Oath -- Modern Version

 

I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:

 

I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.

 

I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures which are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.

 

I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.

 

I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.

 

I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.

 

I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.

 

I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.

 

I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.

 

If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.

 

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/doctors/oath_modern.html

[JoshK]

"physician assisted suicide" does not necessarily mean the doctor is the one who kills. it can be a simple matter of obtaining/prescribing the required drugs for self-administration by the would be suicide.

Dru, that is exactly the case in Oregon. The doctor only provides. The patient administers.

 

I suggest some of you naysayers go rent a copy of the movie Wit, and after watching it in its entirety see if you feel about the subject the same way you do now. Unless you have been confronted with a slow and extremely painful death, you might not know what to think on the subject. I've had to think a lot about this since my wife was diagnosed with terminal cancer four years ago.

 

 

I watched both my grandma and grandpa (both unfortunately young) die this way. It was extremely sad.

 

 

catbird, I'm sorry to hear about your wife, that is really tough.

[cj001f]

i guess in a way I have a problem with saying, "I want to die, but I'm too chickenshit to kill myself, so I want a doctor to do it for me."

Assisted suicide in Oregon doesn't provide a chickenshit way out. You still have to make the decision "pull the trigger" if you will. It simply provides a dignified way out. What is wrong with allowing a terminally ill patient a repectable exit?

 

If you think people aren't mature enough to be responsible for their own lives - are you goin gto let them go climbing? They could end their lives easier

[markinore]

Assisted suicide in Oregon doesn't provide a chickenshit way out. You still have to make the decision "pull the trigger" if you will. It simply provides a dignified way out. What is wrong with allowing a terminally ill patient a repectable exit?

 

Perhaps I did not express myself well. I have great sympathy for a terminally ill person and for his or her family. It is not clear to me why the doctors need to be involved in this. I doubt that most doctors have the training or experience to evaluate a patient requesting assisted suicide and differentiate between someone who is clinically depressed, someone who is having a bad day, someone who feels coerced, etc. There are many easy and painless ways to kill yourself without prescription drugs. If you truly believe in individual autonomy, perhaps you would prefer that the law allow a person to obtain drugs to commit suicide over the counter.

[rbw1966]

I recommend you educate yourself on the elements of this issue before expounding on them. These terminally ill patients are carefully evaluated before any drugs are prescribed to them. Doctors are involved because the drugs used are PRESCRIPTION medications.

 

So tell me, what "painless" ways to kill oneself are you familiar with?

 

But yes, I for one believe a person should be allowed to do whatever they want to their body.

[markinore]

These terminally ill patients are carefully evaluated before any drugs are prescribed to them.

 

As much as I trust doctors, I just have a hard time believing that all those who are legally permitted to assist suicide are truly adept at the psychological evaluation of a patient making that request. Most primary care doctors spend a lot of time trying to heal people or care for chronic illnesses and make them more tolerable, and would have a difficult time making the careful evaluation that you seem to think is automatic. Most specialty doctors are even less familiar with these kinds of end of life decisions. When the legislature passed that law, it did not automatically result in doctors suddenly being able to answer not just medical questions but profoundly larger questions of life or death.

 

Doctors are involved because the drugs used are PRESCRIPTION medications.

 

Obviously, if we thought that easy suicide should be possible without a prescription, the law could be rewritten accordingly. A number of effective agents for committing suicide are not drugs at all.

 

So tell me, what "painless" ways to kill oneself are you familiar with?

 

Probably the most painless is carbon monoxide poisoning. I could go into the details of how this is done, but I would prefer not to take the responsibility of possibly influencing anyone to actually do it. There is a wide range of poisons that can be obtained that also work quickly and painlessly. If you chose to use a poison, it would be advisable to do some research to make certain that you don't use one that will just make you sick or cause other serious injury short of death. Again, I think it is unwise for me to specify what poison is "good" for this purpose.

 

I have some familiarity with this subject having spent a lot of time with my dad before he died (prior to the law). He was sick for many years and contemplated suicide. At his request, I researched things very carefully. I left it up to him to decide what to do. I was grateful that he decided not to kill himself. I treasured his remaining days that he spent with me and his grandsons. I do not mean to suggest that his was the right choice for everyone. I do suggest that suicide can be accomplished without a doctor.

[cj001f]

When the legislature passed that law, it did not automatically result in doctors suddenly being able to answer not just medical questions but profoundly larger questions of life or death.

I'd suggest you read the act Mark.

 

The patient must make a written request, signed by at least one independant person, they then must make an oral request. They then have to reaffirm their wish at least 15 days later.

 

The law requires 2 physicians to examine the patient, and, if either physician feels the person may be suffering from depression they shall refer him to a counselor.

 

The physician isn't charged with life or death - their charged with evaluating a patients condition, prognosis, and their ability to give informed consent - THINGS THAT THEY DO EVERYDAY!