Twight and Boots

[Greg_W]

So, I was reading "Extreme Alpinism" the other night (mostly for the pictures, on account of the fact that I'm a gaper) and read Twight's thoughts on boots. He's a big advocate of plastics, which is cool, but he says to buy the shells a size small and then buy Alveolite liners and have them custom molded to your feet. Does anyone have experience with this practice? I see his logic, I'm just wondering how it has worked in practice.

 

Greg_W

[ashw_justin]

I think that's the same idea with thermofits for ski boots nowadays...?

[catbirdseat]

That piece of advice is already dated. There are better liners and boots available now, like the Intuition liners and Scarpa Alphas. My understanding is that Twight used Invernos. You may or may not be able to size the shells smaller than you would with the standard liners. The Alphas are lighter, smaller and more flexible and with the thermo molded Intuition liners are just as warm. Furthermore they don't absorb moisture.

[Greg_W]

Do the Intuition liners come standard with the Alphas? I've heard mixed reviews on the Alpha as far as the thinner shell material and I'm no Fred Astair with crampons on.

[ken4ord]

I have a feeling his advice would have now changed for boots, now that there is a great selection of leather boots. At the time when he wrote EA there was probably only a couple of leathers to choose from.

[Rodchester]

Not so sure that i would agree. Wearing the newer leathers with insulation on one day ice climbs is one thing, but on Denali or the Rupal Face? I disagree with the assumption that Twight would say to no longer use plastics in the world of Extreme Alpinism.

 

Maybe I'm wrong, I mean I suck anyway.

Edited May 5, 2004 by Rodchester

[PaulB]

Do the Intuition liners come standard with the Alphas?

No, they do not. I had a pair of Intuition liners fitted for Alphas, but found they were too bulky around the ankle, which I didn't like. I returned the Alphas, and used the liners in my ski boots.

 

I also found that "sizing down" didn't apply to Alphas, because they are already a very low volume boot compared to something like the Inverno.

[catbirdseat]

I was told is that the Intuition liners don't compress as quickly as the Alveolite liners. Is that true?

[DonnV]

Do the Intuition liners come standard with the Alphas?

No, they do not.

Actually, the new 2004 Alphas come with a "Thermo formable" liner. May be made by Intuition or some other supplier, but the liner says "Scarpa" on it.

[John Frieh]

It’s been awhile since I've done it, but when I worked at a gear shop I did liner and/or shell modifications. The bottom line is it costs a lot of money (especially if it turns out the modification didn't work and you have to buy new boots… no shop will guarantee you a new pair if they mods don’t work) and the improvements aren't stellar. With the number of options on the market today (compared to just a few years ago), one doesn't have to behave like Cinderella's step sister to get a pair of boots to work.

 

Twight’s argument for downsizing is primarily to get the boot to climb rock better. If you don’t plan on 5th class terrain in your plastics it’s a non issue. However if you do, it’s something to consider. My advice would be to not downsize, but instead buy a pair of boots in your street size (for some reason people still think they should upsize boots to accommodate more socks… not always a good idea) that are lower profile/trimmer (i.e. the alphas). Trying on different boots you will see some are much bulky than others. Once you do find a pair; climb in them. Take your boots to the gym at least once a week; climb with a pack on; etc. etc.

 

As far as the alphas go; they do climb rock better, but aren’t as warm as other plastics on the market (some actually compare their warmth to an insulated leather). This will always be the case with any boot: trim it down for rock and it won’t be as warm. Good boot if it fits.

 

Are you in the market for plastics Greg?

[Greg_W]

I've got a pair of plastics that work okay. They're good for slogs and shit, but have felt a little sloppy when I get into more technical ground. They work well, don't get me wrong, but I'm also thinking of upping the performance of my footwear for a potential trip this summer.

[John Frieh]

How many days do you anticipate for your trip? If its 2-3 days, lower elevation, and you're diligent about keeping them dry, leather is always better.

 

What are you wearing right now? Are they upsized? Have you tried moderate rock in them?

[catbirdseat]

A friend of mine is taking her Alphas with her to Denali in two weeks. She has the thermo molded liners. I asked her if she was sure they were warm enough. She said that with the overboots, they would be.

[forrest_m]

To get back to greg’s original question, I have the exact setup described in EA, scarpa inverno plastic boots, purchased 1 shell size small, with intuition liners custom formed to my feet. It is definitely a lower volume/better fitting solution than any plastic boots I had previously had. They climb pretty darn well, though not as well as my leather boots (although the plastic boot setup is actually lighter than my saloman super guide 9 leather boots!). They are still a little roomy around the toe area, but I think this is actually an advantage for keeping the toes warm and for walking. It’s not so much that my feet ram into the front on descents. I basically only use this setup for Alaska because they are too warm for the cascade, lillooet in winter or the rockies in summer/fall and they aren't nearly as comfy as the leathers on trails.

 

For ice and moderate mixed climbing, you are generally edging touching the medium with your campons, which remain the same, so the different boot size doesn’t make nearly as much difference as it would rock climbing. This assumes, of course, that you aren’t doing figure-4, heel-spurs-on-your-tools type stuff.

 

If you buy boots that don’t come from the factory with a formable liner, be aware that 1 shell size doesn’t necessarily mean one foot size, many brands of plastic climbing and skiing boots only manufacture the shells on the whole sizes and use different liners to make the half sizes. This was true of the Scarpa’s when I bought them (2000), but may not still be true.

 

For the Big Cold (> 3-4 days in very cold, snowy conditions), I can’t imagine using leather boots. Too much of a PITA for me. But if the Alpha or similar “technical” plastic boot now comes with a formable liner that takes into account its special shape, it sounds like an appealing thought. Anyone know how thick the liner is on them? Are they using a thinner foam to maintain “feel?” That might reduce their utility for denali, etc., although they’d still probably be warm enough for most use.

[John Frieh]

New liner is trimmer; however my friend just got them and hasn't taken them out in truly cold conditions. He had the older liner version and never had a problem with cold feet.

 

CBS: I hope your friend is right.

[Greg_W]

I'm wearing Koflach Degres, which, on the whole I like as a boot. I think the shells are a bit large, but I've done some 4th class w/o crampons and some mixed climbing with crampons and they've done okay. Key word being "okay". As I am gaperific enough to blame my equipment for all my climbing shortcomings, I am convinced that it's these boots that have held me back from sending stellar routes and securing a killer GU sponsorship.

[John Frieh]

Those actually climb alright. Are they your street size or significantly bigger? What do you hope to climb (if it's any of my business)?

[Dru]

i have rock climbed up to 5.8 in my old koflachs no problem. it just requires a different technique. give up on smearing and look for edges. id rather have a clunky boot and warm dry feet than dexterity but frozen feet. that said i have a pair of leathers too. i'd suggest you get a pair of each and use as appropriate.

 

i heard it is really easy to damage the shell of the alphas like by looking at them wrong or walking in sharp scree

[Greg_W]

Those actually climb alright. Are they your street size or significantly bigger? What do you hope to climb (if it's any of my business)?

 

Bigger. The Tooth alpine style: less than 48 hours.

[catbirdseat]

i heard it is really easy to damage the shell of the alphas like by looking at them wrong or walking in sharp scree

I would believe that.

[John Frieh]

If you fear public reprimand from the site (I know I do); pm me and I promise not to reveal it. I'll do my best to offer some rec's for you. Since your current pair is larger; you might be looking at a new pair.

J

[rbw1966]

What are you wearing right now?

 

Get a room you two.

[Greg_W]

If you fear public reprimand from the site

 

I seem to thrive on public reprimand from this site.

[Dr_Flash_Amazing]

I'm no Fred Astair with crampons on.

 

But he's positively dreamy on the dance floor!

 

*swoon*

 

[Stephen_Ramsey]

i heard it is really easy to damage the shell of the alphas like by looking at them wrong or walking in sharp scree

While stomping a belay platform on Horsetail Falls in Colordao, I accidentally punched a 1 cm hole in the top of my boot with a crampon tine. However, with a bit of sandpaper and seam grip, it was easy to repair. I never did try Dru's suggestion of using a soldering iron.