Best @ Frenchman's

[Dane]

Most of the stuff people climb these days we wouldn't even name, but the best has to include, Jihad, Lingerie (no stemming please) and Stems and Seeds.

 

Your favorite?

[Peter_Puget]

LOL well you alway shave an atittude but in any event two of the climbs you mentioned are way overrated (despite being downrated since the FA!) and mediocre. Stems and seeds is pretty good tho.

 

PP

[Sabertooth]

Even though it is really easy, I just love Party in Your Pants. The Steel Grille, Bob's Your Uncle, and Theresa's Lingerie are nice too. I haven't tried any of the ones you mentioned yet.

 

PP, it's interesting about the grades, because I've talked to two people who said that Jihad was one of the hardest 11a's they have ever done. The rock at Middle East Wall is by far the best at Vantage, I can see why 2 of Dane's favorites are over there.

[Peter_Puget]

Jihad was originally rated 11+ and I think Lingerie 12+ or maybe the other way around. Look at the ratings polls there is a lot of divergence about ratings. I haven't done either of those climbs in years. I do remember Bob being harder, heck corner pockets is a harder lead and it is only .10.

 

Plus didnt the fa guys carve the name at the base? Or was that another climb.

Edited April 27, 2004 by Peter_Puget

[matt_warfield]

Party in Your Pants

George and Martha

Jigsaw Direct Direct

Human Sacrifice

Psychogenic Fugue Thus Far

[matt_warfield]

I think the ratings at Middle East are solid. Some of the FA folks in that era didn't have a good handle on the difficulty of their climbs (i.e. Human Sacrifice was originally 11b I think). But that doesn't mean the current ratings are soft, just some of the original ones.

 

In any event, when people gripe about bad rock, I ask them if they've been to Middle East as the rock is superb and solid for the most part.

Edited April 27, 2004 by matt_warfield

[Peter_Puget]

Butcher of Bagdad is a great route! So is the route next to it. (Aftershock) I agree ME Wall has some good routes and generally good rock. (The top can get kinda funcky)

 

We'll have to continue to disagree over the ratings. Go lead Lingerie and then one of the two I just recomended.

 

I am doing my GK imitation today.

[matt_warfield]

I've not done either of the routes you mentioned, PP, so must restrict my comments to other routes. I have a hunch that Dane knows quite well how hard most of the trad routes at Frenchman's are.

[richard_noggin]

The whole place is a choss pile and I wood not go there ! But if I did my Fav's wood be ...Party in your pants, 7 virgins and a mule , oh yeah Burning Spears all the 4 star 5.11s cracks on middle east wall.

There is some MANKY short bolted choss sport routes

also ..The Fugue, Frank Black, Dew Claw,....King of Ruins anything Magic Mike puts up is

[chucK]

see the definitive guide

[Dane]

It is always interesting to see how climbs get rated, down rated, laughed at, choped, chipped and then turned into trade routes over time. When there were no crowds at Vantage...and I mean no crowds, a good many of us 3rd classed Sex Party to hang a top rope. After all it was only 5.8.

 

Lingerie was first lead after being cleaned and top roped once. With no stemming involved the original rating of 5.12a/b in 1985, seemed reasonable in Fire Cats, sliders and a swami. Slippers weren't in vogue yet Neither were gyms and a zillion TRs. Some one (from Yakima or Ellensburg?) wrote it up as a FA in Climbing a few years later and called it Star Blaster or something like that and rated it .12d IIRC. Which was a joke.

 

Pissed me off a bit so I chipped the climb's name at the base. Give the gomers a reference the next time they wanted to claim FAs.

 

.12b seemed reasonable as Stevens Pass/ ROTC was 5.12a/5.11c and Spellbound was 5.11a at the time. Glad someone rated those wankers routes

 

If you have climbed much at Vantage pretty easy to see the climbs change a good deal with flakes breaking off making cracks, stances, hand and foot holds, usually, better.

Last I looked the bottom 30 feet of Lingerie (crux) had been chopped to open up the crack. But then we didn't stem on Lingerie either.

 

Jihad was toped twice and cleaned on rappel twice before it was lead in '85. It was a lot harder than Thin Fingers and ROTC IMO. We figured .11c/d

 

It was a longgggggg time before it saw many clean ascents on TR let alone another lead.

 

But things do change for a number of reasons. Just thought those three were some of the better climbs at Frenchman's.

 

Stems and Seeds is by the hardest of all of them for me to lead at .11a ..never was real impressed by ratings.

 

Once everything gets down rated to 5.9 may be I can do them again

 

and mediocre

 

Funny that Peter. I have done many of the better cracks in the PNW and I would rate those short cracks as some of the best, short of Indian Creek.

 

Max Dufford was willing to proclaim S&Ss as the best stemming problem in Washington. That after having done some of the best at Index.

Edited April 28, 2004 by Dane

[Peter_Puget]

It is always interesting to see how climbs get rated, down rated, laughed at, choped, chipped and then turned into trade routes over time. When there were no crowds at Vantage...and I mean no crowds, a good many of us 3rd classed Sex Party to hang a top rope. After all it was only 5.8.

 

Lingerie was first lead after being cleaned and top roped once. With no stemming involved the original rating of 5.12a/b in 1987, seemed reasonable in Fire Cats, sliders and a swami. Slippers weren't in vogue yet Neither were gyms and a zillion TRs. Some one (from Yakima or Ellensburg?) wrote it up as a FA in Climbing a few years later and called it Star Blaster or something like that and rated it .12d IIRC. Which was a joke.

 

Pissed me off a bit so I chipped the climb's name at the base. Give the gomers a reference the next time they wanted to claim FAs.

 

.12b seemed reasonable as Stevens Pass/ ROTC was 5.12a/5.11c and Spellbound was 5.11a at the time. Glad someone rated those wankers routes

 

If you have climbed much at Vantage pretty easy to see the climbs change a good deal with flakes breaking off making cracks, stances, hand and foot holds, usually, better.

Last I looked the bottom 30 feet of Lingerie (crux) had been chopped to open up the crack. But then we didn't stem on Lingerie either.

 

Jihad was toped twice and cleaned on rappel twice before it was lead in '85. It was a lot harder than Thin Fingers and ROTC IMO. We figured .11c/d

 

It was a longgggggg time before it saw many clean ascents on TR let alone another lead.

 

But things do change for a number of reasons. Just thought those three were some of the better climbs at Frenchman's.

 

Stems and Seeds is by the hardest of all of them for me to lead at .11a ..never was real impressed by ratings.

 

Once everything gets down rated to 5.9 may be I can do them again

 

and mediocre

 

Funny that Peter. I have done many of the better cracks in the PNW and I would rate those short cracks as some of the best, short of Indian Creek.

 

Max Dufford was willing to proclaim S&Ss as the best stemming problem in Washington. That after having done some of the best at Index.

 

Dane - I was a bit irritated that you had to slag Vantage climbing in your initial post. Thanks for the history. Funny that you seem to be claiming that I said SS was mediocre. Here is what I said: "LOL well you alway shave an atittude but in any event two of the climbs you mentioned are way overrated (despite being downrated since the FA!) and mediocre. Stems and seeds is pretty good tho." Funny that, I wasn't saying SS was mediocre. I am glad you enjoy the routes.

 

Vantage was pretty quiet in years past I was first taken there in 1980. The area has changed quite a bit. I climbed the two routes in question a long time ago.

 

Cheers,

PP

Edited April 28, 2004 by Peter_Puget

[Dane]

Irritated? I wasn't slaging Vantage, Peter, just the guys who name every POS crack/bolt line Although I certainly wouldn't feel bad about slagging the vast majority of climbs at Vantage.

 

My point was, no matter the grade and I sure didn't mention any, I would hardly call any of the three, mediocre climbs.

They aren't El Cap either and Vantage is a big choss pile unless I missed your point

 

Vantage was pretty quiet in years past I was first taken there in 1980. The area has changed quite a bit. I climbed the two routes in question a long time ago.

 

Quiet wouldn't be the word that would have fallen off my tongue describing Vantage prior to '86.

 

Love to read a the story of who introduced you the Coulee and what you did from 1980 on. I know some of the early details of the area but have heard a lot of BS too.

 

While I have met or known all the guide book authors on the Coulee, the best history of the area that I have read, that actually is backed up by my own experiences there, was done by Yoder and Marlene.

 

Always figured grades were the climbing communities' consensus. Never was too concerned about it. And never thought one person's lead graded a climb. You weren't part of that consensus Peter...having climbed there since 1980? I would have thought you would have written the guide book. Funny too, that in the three guide books ('91, '99, '02) I have sitting here, all of them disagree on ratings for the same climbs almost 20 years after they were first done. Not much of a consensus IMO.

 

Butcher of Bagdad should have a better rating, done on pre- placed bolts and in '94. Ten years after the other 3 were done on gear, all placed on lead. Bad comparison IMO.

 

If I can get over clipping bolts and my lardass maybe I should do them all again and decide for myself.

 

I was just wondering what other's thought were the "best" and some intelligent conversation.

 

Edited April 28, 2004 by Dane

[Peter_Puget]

Irritated? I wasn't slaging Vantage, Peter, just the guys who name every POS crack/bolt line Although I certainly wouldn't feel bad about slagging the vast majority of climbs at Vantage.

 

My point was, no matter the grade and I sure didn't mention any, I would hardly call any of the three, mediocre climbs.

They aren't El Cap either and Vantage is a big choss pile unless I missed your point

 

Vantage was pretty quiet in years past I was first taken there in 1980. The area has changed quite a bit. I climbed the two routes in question a long time ago.

 

Quiet wouldn't be the word that would have fallen off my tongue describing Vantage prior to '86.

 

Love to read a the story of who introduced you the Coulee and what you did from 1980 on. I know some of the early details of the area but have heard a lot of BS too.

 

While I have met or known all the guide book authors on the Coulee, the best history of the area that I have read, that actually is backed up by my own experiences there, was done by Yoder and Marlene.

 

Always figured grades were the climbing communities' consensus. Never was too concerned about it. And never thought one person's lead graded a climb. You weren't part of that consensus Peter...having climbed there since 1980? I would have thought you would have written the guide book. Funny too, that in the three guide books ('91, '99, '02) I have sitting here, all of them disagree on ratings for the same climbs almost 20 years after they were first done. Not much of a consensus IMO.

 

Butcher of Bagdad should have a better rating, done on pre- placed bolts and in '94. Ten years after the other 3 were done on gear, all placed on lead. Bad comparison IMO.

 

If I can get over clipping bolts and my lardass maybe I should do them all again and decide for myself.

 

I was just wondering what other's thought were the "best" and some intelligent conversation.

 

 

Dane -

 

Many people climbed at Vantage before you discovered it. You seem to be calling my honesty into question. That's fine. For what its worth I was taken to the area around Sunshine Wall. We approached the routes from below. I was not claiming that I did the FA of Lingerie or Jihad - but I was claiming to have done them before they were changed.

 

I have a different opinion of those routes. I am glad you enjoyed them.

 

PP

[chucK]

What's up with a "no stemming" rating for Lingerie? Makes it seem like a boulder problem or a gym climb. It's probably ten something if you rate in the standard fashion, without any fine print (top-rope assessment only there ).

[Gripped]

What's up with a "no stemming" rating for Lingerie? Makes it seem like a boulder problem or a gym climb. It's probably ten something if you rate in the standard fashion, without any fine print (top-rope assessment only there ).

 

No doubt. "No Stemming" =>

 

How about, "no lie-backs", "no hand jams" and "no drop knees"? What about "no smearing"? and "no edging"? No mantelling either...

 

fuggit! You can only climb by campusing every move! Anything else is tainted.

 

 

[Gripped]

Dru says,

 

"technique is aid"

[Sabertooth]

Yeah, it seems obvious to climb lingerie with your left foot stemming off the Sex Party crack. I'm sure it makes it a lot easier.

 

The same with Sex Party. Seems a lot easier is you stem way out to the right. If you don't stem, it is a pure handrcrack with no feet in many spots. Wouldn't it be harder than 5.8? Here is a photo from Eric and Lucie's website of stemming Sex Party...

 

[chucK]

Looks like he might be climbing Lingerie Party 5.7+

[Dane]

Saber, cool pic thanks!

 

Hey guys just telling you how we did them and how they were originally rated. How you climb them is up to you. We actually did think of Vantage as a gym of sorts. A good place to climb early and late in the year and get pumped on cracks. Since I have never really been good in the heat I also climbed a lot out there in the summer to prepare for Valley trips. Record was a day of 106 degree temps in Spokane. Which made it really warm @ Vantage. When every other crack is just an arms reach or stem away kinda makes naming every crack redundant IMO. Makes grading them darn near impossible.

 

Ya gotta ask Dave about placing bolts by hand in Basalt

Bolts that were later chopped by some idiot.

 

PP, you are a little vague on details and names. That is why I continue to question folks who claimed to have climbed at Vantage early on. 1980 was a different time. Leading Vantage rock from the ground up would have been real interesting with the typical choss pile on top.

 

BTW I didn't discover Vantage...Rick Newman, who was from Ellensberg told me about it. I also thought he had a pretty firm grip on who climbed there before we started driving out. I think a little respect is do anyone who claims a FA. Certainly Fred Stanley did more than one route in the area and was climbing hard enough to have done many of the better climbs that were claimed as FAs. If you and your friends we leading climbs on Sunshine wall in 1980 you deserve the credit for it. You certainly imply that you haven't had your due in writing.

 

But what is up with the quotes and the two sentence reply?

Edited April 28, 2004 by Dane

[slaphappy]

Dane- Doubting the validity of climbers accomplishments at The Coulee previous to your experiences seems rather arrogant and short sighted.

 

I climb with a prominent Leavenworth climber who rode his bike from Portland to Frenchman's in the late 70's. He spent weeks dropping loads of acid and climbed ground up (albeit probably the easier stuff) many of the cracks on Sunshine now named and "claimed" by far more recent visitors. There is no reason to doubt the validity of his claims as I'm sure there is no reason to doubt the claims of many other early visitors.

 

Just my thoughts...

 

-I agree rating practice climbs is sometimes rather silly but since it is the norm, excluding holds or stemming possibilities while coming up with a consensus is absolutely ridiculous.

[Dane]

The same with Sex Party. Seems a lot easier is you stem way out to the right. If you don't stem, it is a pure handrcrack with no feet in many spots. Wouldn't it be harder than 5.8?

 

Ok, first I was kidding a little on the 5.8 grading for Sex Party It is worth looking at how we originally approached the climbs at Vantage. Of all the cracks we did there originally only Jihad and Lingerie were ever named until Eminger and Kittle decided to do a guide book. Hell we couldn't remember everything we had climbed let alone think of a name for them! Sex Party was the fastest way to hang a top rope on Middle east Wall, so it was lead and soloed to do that depending on how your were feeling that day. No question when i used Sex Party to hang a rope I did it the easiest way possible.

 

Lingerie was/is contrived if you refuse to stem. I tried leading it several times and ended up stemming instead of falling on the upper section of good fingers. Never considered stemming a free ascent of the Lingerie finger crack.

 

I only know how I looked at Lingerie. All it was to me was a really hard, straight in finger crack and something to work out on after it was lead. My only defense is the climb was hard for me so I rated accordingly when asked. Harder for me than the others I have mentioned in this thread and had lead before doing Lingerie.

 

I have seen ratings go up and down depending on climber size and the gear that was available when the FA was done. Good example is Easter Overhang or Spellbound. 5.9 and .11a the first time I did either. Now it is 5.10c and .11d. You'll get no arguement from me either way. Lingerie is .10 today? Cool, works for me.

 

I just like the line, contrived as it may be, which is why I thought it one of the best at Frenchman's

 

Doubting the validity of climbers accomplishments at The Coulee previous to your experiences seems rather arrogant and short sighted.

 

As I said I think the people who make FAs at any recognised climbing area deserve the recognition of that effort. While you may perceive my comment as arrogant and short sighted my intention was neither but simply to have the that "new" info available to the climbing community.

 

Screen names aren't a big help when you are looking for past history. History I find interesting BTW. I may not remember every climb I did at Vantage over the years but I do remember my first trips and who held the ropes.

Edited April 28, 2004 by Dane

[Peter_Puget]

Where did I claim FAs? I believe I stated that I was taken to Vantage. The person taking me had in fact climbed there before and was himself taken there by others who had climbed there. I have claimed no FAs. As a sidebar what I remember most was the dirt (ash?) in the cracks and the amount of loose rocks within the cracks.

[Szyjakowski]

that man is a legend.

red m&ms is good stemin fun too

[Dane]

Party in Your Pants

George and Martha

Jigsaw Direct Direct

Human Sacrifice

Psychogenic Fugue Thus Far

 

Thanks Matt. Back to the original subject instead of a stroll down memory lane, since the dirt and loose rock hasn't changed. I was looking for a quick list of the best at Vantage. Anyone care to add their own, must do, favorites?