John Kerry...a true American coward

[cracked]

True american

[gotterdamerung]

 

Who's keeping secrets? You're all like little dogs nipping at my feet with your comments.

Edited June 8, 2004 by Off_White

[gotterdamerung]

In Heinlein's 'Starship Troopers' only people who have served their country are called citizens and given the right to vote.

 

Heinlein has also had his hero travel back in time to have sex with his mother and advocated for bisexual promiscuity, so you might reconsider who you want to script your ideal society for you.

 

I liked your last name better, this one is a little too melodramatic.

 

I'm not familiar with those works, nor was I advocating his general philosophy now was I? Apparentally YOU are quite well versed however.

[gotterdamerung]

I'd fight for something I believed in. I don't believe in Bush, so I won't fight his stupid war. You don't believe in Kerry, so you won't fight for him. What's the difference?

 

So what do you believe in? Please enlighten me. I don't fight for Bush and I've said several times that I don't like him anymore than some of you do. I suggest you pick up some books and start reading. I would start with some of the more recent terrorist manifestos published out there to see exactly what some of their aims are. CNN.com does not constitute informed literature.

[Beck]

...hey, hey. the coalition forces are over in Iraq to a) get Saddam Hussein and b) find the weapons of mass destruction. As soon as these objectives are met, the Iraqis will be greeting us with open arms....

 

oh, Cheney had a cas of "Iraqi fever" shortly after 9/11 and it tied into his military efforts with halliburton, got a lot more done this time around...

 

oh, this is about Kerry versus Bush? Kerry would kick butt in a heartbeat, the man has been in combat. any american that makes light of that is shooting blanks. The fact the the republican team is playing semantics with his post war actions is pitiful. Bush is a draft deferring party boy coward. IMO.

 

oh, they wouldn't let me serve even if i tried. too flippin crazy! (guess i should have stopped taking all that acid back in the day)

[gotterdamerung]

So which one of Dick Cheney's companies is paying your contract?

 

I don't work for KBR. This is who I work for Toad BW

 

Who do you work for? WalMart?

[gotterdamerung]

Beck, no you're shooting blanks. Public admission of LSD usage is an immediate disqualifier for about 90% of the jobs in the US today. Congratulations, welcome to the welfare state.

[Beck]

thanks, who said i wasn't on welfare already?

 

I'll make sure to send any future employers right this way for my references. never noticed the "have you taken lots of drugs?" question on many job apps lately.

 

I'll make sure and list you as a reference.

 

oh, bush got caught with cocaine and he's president, clinton didn't inhale, gore smoked weed, and the FBI will let you smoke pot, but only 15 times, and not within the last three years.

 

maybe John Kerry got caught with tabs once, Bush is still a coward compared to Kerry.

 

whatever.

[eternalX]

Elect Gary Nolan!

 

According to our mercenary friend, if you're against war you're a coward! Wars for everyone! That's such a lovely thought.

 

Personally, I think it'd take a lot more guts to come back and protest a war that you'd been involved in, rather than 'somehow' forgetting if you showed up for your weekend warrior duty.

 

But what do I know. I'm just a coward because I don't think wars are the coolect thing since sliced bread.

[gotterdamerung]

I don't think I EVER once said war was the coolest thing since sliced bread. The way people tag other people's opinions on this site is hilarious. Nor, have I referenced people as cowards for not supporting the issues at hand. What I implied is that there are alot of priviledged persons on this website who are so eager to voice their opinions about something they have no firsthand knowledge of. Hating war is supposed to be a noble action in this enlightened culture, however it does not seem that some of our enemies feel as sheltered from events at hand as you do. Furthermore, many of the opinions on this board are so uninformed it's almost a waste of time to even justify them with a retort. Let me also remind all of you that you all seem to be pretty brazen with your comments when it's like a dog pile of opinion against mine. Clearly this community is a bastion of liberal thought processes and precisely why I hang around. I like keeping track of you toads.

 

Clinton inhaled, Bush snorts coke, and Beck takes acid. Doesn't mean that any of you are deformed or anything. It's merely a character reference and evidence of one's personal judgement. Everyone makes bad judgement calls or has the desire to know firsthand about what something might be like. Nothing wrong with that in my mind. The FBI would probably not hire someone with evidence of having used marijuana 15 times, although I am of the strong opinion that alcohol is far more damaging.

[Beck]

when you guys find Saddam Hussein, and those weapons of mass destruction, maybe you'll have a , gotterwhosawhasis.

 

Americans are dying why? again? Many Americans can't get a grasp on that. Iraqi people=terrorists responsible for 9/11? Huh? It's a profiteering war by privateers, not a war against terrorists. If we were occupied by the Finns, i bet a lot of common folk would rise up against occupation.

 

Good luck, stay safe, and boy do you have a lot of time at the computer for a fella in a war zone. No offense.

 

Oh, and an FBI recruiter laid out those standards for maryjane usage in the Times this last week, so, 14 times, you're okay, 15, probably not. You're right.

 

Again ,sorry you're in a war zone, but you chose to go there, is that correct? What do you do, drive a truck, load airplanes, or serve food?

 

also, sorry to hear you consider others opinions dog pile against your own, sounds like misinformed patriotic elitism to me.

 

have a nice day. when i need that job reference, i'll have them give you a call.

[gotterdamerung]

You're immature statement regarding the reasons for the American presense in Iraq demonstrates to me your failure to understand much of anything about foreign policy *except* for what you have been told by some indymedia lamers. Your completely inane statement regarding Saddam Hussein who was captured months ago demonstrates your disassociation with events occurring in the world. Your further statement regarding WMD also shows me how little you understand about the situation currently evolving with Syria. But hey, you're a simpleton so what should I expect. Take some more acid and forget about it.

 

If you'd like to come over and walk a day in my shoes sometime I'm sure you would be a little less concerned about the amount of time I have to spend in front a computer everyday. I get the chance to be killed about as much as anyone around this shithole. The fact that I get unlimited access to a computer shows status turd. Where are you getting your PC access? The library?

 

The reason I know what the FBI standards are is because I have friends in the FBI.

 

The reason I post here is succinctly seperate from what you propose. I certainly don't hold others opinions as dog shit. I take an opposite vein in order to hear them. Most often though they contain little in the way of substance, hence the barbs. I have yet to read too many reasonable liberal opinions on this board. Not that there aren't intelligent people posting here, but gauging by the knee jerk-off responses it is reasonable to assume that they really down deep couldn't give a shit. They just like to hear themselves talk. It's the internet and I'm just passing time in between events where I can get my ass blown off. I don't drive a truck, serve food, or load airplanes. This once again shows your current lack of information level.

 

I bet if we were occupied by the Finns you'd be one of those type trying to work in their camp as a laundry boy. Hey Chogi!

 

As far as a job reference I don't give references for Kmart or Labor Ready.

[tele_nut]

Kerry's a putz. Just because he's a veteran doesn't mean he will be a good president.

 

I'm hoping he doesn't make it in office. Not because I like bush much either. But because those soft hearted demmies let the world tample over us instead of protecting our people and interests. At least bush knew when to kick ass back. Senior Clinton had his head up some chick's skirt when he should have been fucking bringin down the massacre on Bin Laden.

[Peter_Puget]

Here is the best quote I have read recently related to Kerry.

 

You know [Chris] Matthews is slipping when he's the guy Democrats go to in order to recover from the tough questioning on Good Morning America.

 

 

PP

[rbw1966]

Kerry's a putz. Just because he's a veteran doesn't mean he will be a good president.

 

I'm hoping he doesn't make it in office. Not because I like bush much either. But because those soft hearted demmies let the world tample over us instead of protecting our people and interests. At least bush knew when to kick ass back. Senior Clinton had his head up some chick's skirt when he should have been fucking bringin down the massacre on Bin Laden.

 

Unlike Bush who was right on to of that situation right?

[tele_nut]

You definitely didn't ever win a spelling bee nor were good at reading comprehension were you?

[Jim]

[quote

But because those soft hearted demmies let the world tample over us instead of protecting our people and interests.

 

Pot calling the kettle black.

[dberdinka]

As I doubt we will come to a definitve answer on who is the bigger putz, I'm gonna try and change the subject...

 

Mike, I like your posts. You certainly have a very different perspective on events that any of us do. I only have media on which to formulate my opinions. I’m curious what you think about “winning” this thing.

 

 

The Case For War

 

WMD?

Reducing Terrorist Threats?

Freedom for the Iraq people?

Oil?

Stable Borders for Israel?

Bush Family Revenge?

The Rapture?

 

Certainly a question that has yet to honestly answered, and an important one for judging the actions and ability of Bush Co. But really, who gives a shit. We’re there. The situation is bad, what’s the end game now?

 

The Desired Outcome

 

IMHO Americans first priority in foreign governments is that they are friendly, stable, and allow foreign investment. Democracy and social justice is a secondary concern. Regardless the powers that be tell us the desired outcome is a united Iraq governed by a democratic government.

 

 

My Question Being

 

Is a united and democratic Iraq still a feasible outcome? If it was a feasible outcome in the beginning is it possible that we have made a series of choices (and failures) that prevent it from being so now?

 

My take on all this is that through sheer political arrogance, the use of force (~10,000 civilians dead), disrespect of Islamic culture, a lack of security for the people, an infective rebuilding effort (power, water so forth) America has really lost any chance of bringing a stable, democratic government to Iraq.

 

The UN does not appear to want to come in and take over our mess either.

 

Furthermore, it does not take a scholar to look at Iraq, realize it is an artificially cobbled-together nation consisting of three ethnic groups and wonder is this a nation that can be governed by a representative democracy?

 

Even if a democracy can be established, If you let the people elect representatives who reflect their desires, how long will it take to elect leaders who simply want to go their own way? Both the Kurds and the Shiites have sufficient oil reserves to create prosperous nations, doesn’t seem like any love would be lost among the them and the Sunnis.

 

A three nation solution, or a new tyranny would be a disaster. Is that avoidable? Or are we on the verge of losing big-time?

[tele_nut]

By the way this aint Mike.

 

Also you losers keep referring to my remarks as Pro Repub or Bush. Get a friggin clue.

 

By the way I was not talking about WMD and Iraq. You got your head so far up your bum you can't hear anything.

[dberdinka]

By the way I was not talking about WMD and Iraq. You got your head so far up your bum you can't hear anything.

 

Yes. I realize this was more of a "You suck!, no you suck!" thread hence my note about changing the subject.........

 

Regardless, please help me unstick my head should it truely be shoved up my bum. You've had eloquant and informative posts before, I trust you can do so again......

[murraysovereign]

Ribbons were passed out like candy during the Vietnam conflict to counteract declining morale stemming from the same source (War Protesters) that this American "Hero" later propagated so vehemently.

 

I think at least some of the morale problems in Vietnam were due to the fact that thousands were dying in a useless, pointless war that no-one really understood - not even those directing it. Then, when the lucky ones like Kerry escaped with their lives they went home and told anyone who would listen that thousands were dying in a useless, pointless war, and suggesting that maybe it should stop.

In other words, the anti-war campaigning by people like Kerry wasn't the cause of the low morale, but rather an extension of it. The low morale itself was caused by sending conscripts half-way around the world to die by the thousands in a useless, pointless war. All Kerry et al were doing was trying to bring and end to something that probably never should have been started in the first place.

[rbw1966]

You definitely didn't ever win a spelling bee nor were good at reading comprehension were you?

 

Nice syntax.

 

I read what you wrote just fine. I'm not branding you as a Bush supporter. I'm just pointing out that Bush was about as on top of things as Clinton with respect to Bin Laden.

[lI1|1!]

Post deleted by Off_White

[gotterdamerung]

lI1|1! isn't gay motherfucker sort of a contradiction? I mean if I were gay I wouldn't want my mom now would I? Keep up the good work on learning how to use photoshop little guy. You're getting there. Does your mom know you use language like that online? Time to change the parental controls on your AOL.

 

Real Madrid is a damned good football team. They really like the game over here and will play it on their breaks quite a bit. I see alot of Iraqi's busting hoops too.

 

Darrin, thanks for responding to my call for a more featured discussion, and congrats on your climb of Polar Circus. I *warmed* up on Carlsberg Column one winter thinking that I would hit Polar Circus the day after, but CC shriveled my nuts so badly I ended up at Haffner Creek milking topropes.

 

You want my opinion? Well, I was just sitting in the dining facility talking to some of my cohorts after volunteering to do a 90 day stint over here after June 30th. One other guy sitting across from me also volunteered. He looked up and jokingly said that he has this Billy Joel song going through his head now. Ya know, the one that goes "And we'll all go down together...".

 

>>>Is a united and democratic Iraq still a feasible outcome?

 

Honestly? From what I've seen...probably unlikely. The 3 factions have always been and continue to be deeply divided for one. For two, there is no history of democracy in this region. Three, religion is obviously a strong influence on the population and according to Quranic Law the mixing of humanistic and God's law is an affront to Allah. This is one of the central tenants of the current round of terrorism. They believe that they must adhere to the Prophet or else they are blasphemers. Obviously not everyone is nearly as hardcore as those guys, but they do hear the words and it creates doubt.

 

>>>>outcome? If it was a feasible outcome in the beginning is it possible that we have made a series of choices (and failures) that prevent it from being so now?

 

Now it seems the choice will be made by the Iraqi's themselves. They have lived under both a Totalitarian Regime and a Imperialistic Empire in recent history. Saddam understood that to govern in this divided country he had to be heavy handed. He ruled through fear. Something we do not want to promote ourselves. If we did, there would fewer Americans dying everyday because we would have maintained the initiative vis a vis military control.

 

The Iraqi's decide their own fate. We cannot make them become democratic. We have been and are giving them all the tools to succeed. It is their own lack of understanding about the world and their own potential that are limiting or destroying this chance for them.

 

This is the crux of the problem, and we are trying to establish friendly relations with Iraqi's who are sympathetic to democracy while comprehending the benefits it can bring to their society.

 

Alot of it is outside influence and of course the cleric Sadr who want Muslims to return to the stone age (literally). The area known as Fallujah is predominately a Baathist stronghold. They have lost alot of power here, and they are simpply fighting because they are pissed off. They are now facing total extermination for their errant ways in building this new country. They seem to be OK with that. So be it.

 

Strict Islam is a very narrow minded religion. It is intolerant of anything the Quran does not say. I don't think we have done anything here except try to assist them time and time again in their enterprises. Do I think it's worth even one American life? Well, if we back out now then no it was not worth it. If we take it home and finish the job then I think it has been. Once again, the outcome is on the Iraqi's shoulders come June 30th.

 

>>>>My take on all this is that through sheer political arrogance, the use of force (~10,000 civilians dead), disrespect of Islamic culture, a lack of security for the people, an infective rebuilding effort (power, water so forth) America has really lost any chance of bringing a stable, democratic government to Iraq.

 

Political arrogance is a good term. After the fall of the Soviet Empire, incidentally an empire the Arab world feared far more than the United States, we stood alone on a pinnacle. The Middle East is a complex region and to view Iraq as a gestalt is not seeing the larger picture. In a nutshell I would say that it was a strategic decision based on long term goals in this region. It has become an achilles heel for us.

 

The rebuilding effort has been a mixture of success and failure. The average Iraqi engineer is light years behind and the amount of supplies is limited. Rebuilding projects are done using Iraqi labor and as much as possible Iraqi foremen and engineers. They do not stack up well with our standards of utility. They are often slow, there is a communication barrier, and most of their work is shoddy and half assed. No Core of Engineer can spend all day supervising a few menial tasks. I place the blame for slow reconstruction on underqualified Iraqi's and the slowness of appropriating supplies in a dangerous environment.

[tele_nut]

You definitely didn't ever win a spelling bee nor were good at reading comprehension were you?

 

Nice syntax.

 

I read what you wrote just fine. I'm not branding you as a Bush supporter. I'm just pointing out that Bush was about as on top of things as Clinton with respect to Bin Laden.

 

Hmm, failed to blow Bin shithead up because he was worried. Fucking pansy ass presidents like that contributed to the terrorism..

 

Don't forget about the multiple embassy bombings that were unheard unchallenged by the US. Also USS bobming attacks unchecked unchallenged and without response as well.

 

Don't forget about the folly in the beginning of the presidency in Somalia. Talk about head up ass and pansy fuck.

 

The near failures in the beginning of the first term in Europe were due to shithead pansy president Clinton's inability to manage military with sound judgement. Luckily enough the previous pres had enough troops and gear in the area before he could figure out why they were there and remove them. Thus allowing a semi successful - as some might call it outcome.

 

It's only luck (by opinoin) that he was never hounded much about Kosovo and other areas there. He failed to bring many War criminals to justice successfully IMHO. If you think the US military is a slaughter machine under Bush then you should look what the Demmies let go by without intervention. Turn their heads and fucking ignore and then call themselves peacemakers and pacifists and whatever else. I call that cowardice. I call that excuses.