Winning the Hearts and Minds Pt 2

[Peter_Puget]

The obvious … and the true has got to be defended.

Truisms are true, hold on to that! The solid world

exists, its laws do not change. Stones are hard, water is

wet, objects unsupported fall towards the earth's center.

… If that is granted, all else follows."

George Orwell, 1984

 

Fouad Ajami, a professor of Middle Eastern studies at Johns Hopkins University, said part of political Islam's antimodern approach was a rejection of the Western scientific method. So when some Islamists declared, for instance, that al Qaeda caused this summer's blackout on the East Coast, that could be accepted without any proof..."When there is a break in cause and effect," Mr. Ajami said, "it's easy to sell these views of the world." NYT 10/26/03

 

The Arab World, while rightly credited for its scholarship in the middle ages, never experienced the same domination by Greek culture. Think about that while you read this:

 

Read & Weep

[arlen]

Nothing like high-flown abstractions to deaden a perfectly good troll

[JoshK]

The current situation in the middle east is the perfectly explainable result of draggig a culture out of the dark ages and into the modern world overnight. What took Europe nearly a thousand years was done in less than a hundred in the middle east.

[Fairweather]

Although the left likes to lay claim to Orwell, he can't really be defined by either side of the political spectrum. Be careful though, Peter. One of the mods on this site likes to delete Orwell posts that don't conform to his/her ideals.

 

We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence upon those that would do us harm.--Orwell

[Dru]

The Arab World, while rightly credited for its scholarship in the middle ages, never experienced the same domination by Greek culture.

 

who is this alexander the great fellow? is macedonia part of greece?

[Norman_Clyde]

PP, before you fancy European culture superior to Middle Eastern culture, remind yourself that history gives examples of enlightened cultures which experienced subsequent decline into collective ignorance and intellectual squalor. You might have heard of the Dark Ages of Europe? While the masses wallowed in superstition, Islamic culture was busy with such minor achievements as mathematics and naming the stars. But don't worry, we Westerners are so damn smart-- face it, we're always right, we're NEVER wrong-- that we will never suffer any decline into ignorance. No way. I'm sure you will agree that Americans are MORE literate today than 50 years ago. And of course, no American believes anything unless it's logical and backed up by hard evidence. Must be the benign influence of television.

[Peter_Puget]

PP, before you fancy European culture superior to Middle Eastern culture, remind yourself that history gives examples of enlightened cultures which experienced subsequent decline into collective ignorance and intellectual squalor. You might have heard of the Dark Ages of Europe? While the masses wallowed in superstition, Islamic culture was busy with such minor achievements as mathematics and naming the stars. But don't worry, we Westerners are so damn smart-- face it, we're always right, we're NEVER wrong-- that we will never suffer any decline into ignorance. No way. I'm sure you will agree that Americans are MORE literate today than 50 years ago. And of course, no American believes anything unless it's logical and backed up by hard evidence. Must be the benign influence of television.

 

PP Quote from the top of this thread:

 

The Arab World, while rightly credited for its scholarship in the middle ages, never experienced the same domination by Greek culture. Think about that while you read this:

 

Norman at first I thought your reply was serious then I realized it was comedy as a fine art.

[Mal_Con]

Much of the middle east was indeed domonatd by the greeks. Ptolemeys in Egypt Bahlbeck in Leabonon later Rome via Augustas nee Octavius. No decent Gyros though.

[Fairweather]

While the masses wallowed in superstition, Islamic culture was busy with such minor achievements as mathematics and naming the stars.

 

Norm,

 

Is Islam itself not superstition? Additionally, I think you are wrongly crediting Islam with the myriad of Arab achievements in science and mathematics. The advent of Islam in the middle east has steadily strangled Arab leadership in these areas over the past twelve centuries. Islam is a drug from which the Arab world needs to awaken, just as science and liberal western thought were able to cast off the shackles of The Catholic Church in Europe ...to a large degree, anyhow.

[Peter_Puget]

Much of the middle east was indeed domonatd by the greeks. Ptolemeys in Egypt Bahlbeck in Leabonon later Rome via Augustas nee Octavius. No decent Gyros though.

 

Mal Con - I would point out two things. I wrote Arab not Middle East and I wrote culture. Perhaps a better example would be Turkey - hey guess what a democracy!

 

Don't confuse what I said with what Norman replied to.

 

By the way Norman, if I remember correctly much of Arab developments in mathematics was developed from Indian advances. (Concept of zero for one thing, I think the arabs rejected negative numbers but I could be wrong.) This in no way reduces any of their advances. The one thing Marx did get right was that history was not made by great men - we are all standing on the shoulders of giants.

[AlpineK]

If it wasn't for Islam a lot of the great clasic works of the Roman and Greek world would have been burned by ignorant Christians.

 

Fairweather. All religion is superstition...duh

[Mal_Con]

Arabs did not exist at that time. If you mean since the rise of Islam, the state of the Arab people in ce 900 was were much more advanced than Western Europe who were living in hill forts. Of course India and the Chinese were much more advanced, but who wasn't? Turkey was Byzantine til the 15th Century, and is barely a democracy now sorry difficulties with the interface, refugee from NWwankers

[Peter_Puget]

Depending on what time you mean Arabs did exist but not as a great power. Turkey if you are talking % of current country was not Byzantine. By then Byzantium's control for some time was quite limited.

 

By the way the darkness of the Middle Ages was not as dark as imagined.

Edited April 26, 2004 by Peter_Puget

[Fairweather]

If it wasn't for Islam a lot of the great clasic works of the Roman and Greek world would have been burned by ignorant Christians.

 

Fairweather. All religion is superstition...duh

 

Christians didn't destroy these ancient Buddhist carvings did they, AK? Muslims did. So you see, AK, your constant anti- Christian hysterics aside, all religions try to supplant other's beliefs with their own. (With the possible exception of Buddhism.)

 

I've said it before: The only thing worse than a proselytizing Christian, is a proselytizing atheist. Please try to apply your contempt for religion even-handedly.

 

[gotterdamerung]

I do believe the Arab world was most thoroughly pillaged by the Mongol hoards. Something the Christian Crusaders were never able to accomplish. Baghdad was burned to the ground and 800,000 people were put to the sword during this period.

 

The initial perversion of Islam was created by the intertwining of politics and religion during the Mongols dominance. Many Mongol rulers accepted a distilled version of Islamic faith as their own. Politics and Islam was something the writings of the Quran explicitly rejected because politics infer reverance to mans law and not the law of Allah. Egypt was the first power to accept the concept of seperation of Religion and State.

 

Ever since then certain religious clerics have been perverting their own interpretations to suit their needs according to the current situation. Muslims believe that it is their religious duty for all to fight against an invader who occupies even one inch of Muslim territory. The doctrines Al Qaeda proposes can be traced back to about 1200 A.D.

[Mal_Con]

Christians destroyed much of the art of Rome, Greece, Egypt and many other places. Islam that of Constantinople, Iberia, Indonesia, and Afghanistan as you mentioned. Did Buddhists destroy anything? I do not know. What if anything does it mean? Only that all religions do not respect others, so what else is new? Please distinguish between Mogols and Mongols. One were Orentals who advanced from asoa to te gates of Europe qnd the other went from the wesr into India where they adopted Islam.

Edited April 26, 2004 by Mal_Con

[Matt]

The Mongols-- those descendants of Chingis Khan who live on the steppe of Central Asia, are Buddhists and were never converts to Islam. The first Dalai Lama came from Mongolia and the words "Dalai Lama" mean "ocean of wisdom" in Mongolian. And yes, they destroyed much of the world and conquered all that they could (sounds like us, doesn't it?). The Mongols were the first to use biological warfare bringing the Plague to Europe and using wonderful antics like taking a rotten festering cow that is swollen and has been dead for several days and launching it over the wall of a castle.

 

 

Fairweather said:

Islam is a drug from which the Arab world needs to awaken, just as science and liberal western thought were able to cast off the shackles of The Catholic Church in Europe ...to a large degree, anyhow.

 

Fairyweather I didn't know you were one to paraphrase Marx. Why don't you just say it--- Religion is the opiate of the masses.

[gotterdamerung]

Matt, in fact you are wrong by saying that SOME of the Tartars (Mongols) never converted to Islam. I will reference and post the names of several Tarter chieftans who converted to Islam once they had settled lands in current Syria and Iraq. These converts were an essential part of the reason ibn Tammiyah first began to preach the doctrine of Jihad and right adherance to Islamic rule.

 

There was a saying during the 13th century referring to the Mongols conquests.

 

"There was no eye left open for which to weep for the dead"

 

This was not an exaggeration either. The Caliph who surrendered Baghdad in 1258 and his family were wrapped in rugs and trampled by the Tartar horsemen.

 

I would also like to mention that if you have studied the aims of Al Qaeda and many terrorist organizations similar to it that they do not consider the Zionist nation to be of much consequence. They do play a part in the whole ideology, but the essence states that no man, woman, child who does not adhere strictly to the laws of Allah is an abomination against God and will be punished through Jihad. Jihad is the rightful murder of those opposed to God (Allah). Even if tomorrow the US disavows Israel it will not deter terrorism from continuing their plague of destruction. They will not rest until every man, woman, and child is converted or destroyed. So before you go and try to send Israel to the wolves remember they are the strongest, most powerful military deterrent we have in the middle east. You view them as some kind of rouge nation and they see themselves fighting for their very existense which is not far from the truth. Furthermore, hardened terrorists see little distinction between the Crusaders of old and you sitting in front of your computer right now in Redmond Washington. YOU are their target.

[Norman_Clyde]

PP, you probably give me too much credit, because I did miss your steaksauce to Arab scholarship, and I kind of changed tone in mid-post anyway. My main point is that no civilization is immune to decline, including our own.

 

Re: which civilization came up with what: according to a biography I'm currently reading, Arabic numerals are actually Indian in origin, along with the concept of the zero and of place value (tens, hundreds, etc.).

[Gary_Yngve]

PP, you probably give me too much credit, because I did miss your steaksauce to Arab scholarship...