V-threads in AI... webbing or cordage

[swaterfall]

I've always used pieces of cord to make V-thread anchors in WI. I was wondering if there was any difference for AI. Is it better to use 1/2" webbing or is cord OK?

[Gripped]

I've always used pieces of cord to make V-thread anchors in WI. I was wondering if there was any difference for AI. Is it better to use 1/2" webbing or is cord OK?

I use perlon for alpine ice.

[thelawgoddess]

i've always used webbing - in both ai and wi. and the people i've climbed with that have set up abalakov's en route have also always used webbing. i would think that webbing is "better" because there is much more surface area on the ice to dissipate "stuff" but that's a guess on my part. i'm sure someone else can provide us with a more technical opinion.

[fenderfour]

i've always used webbing - in both ai and wi. and the people i've climbed with that have set up abalakov's en route have also always used webbing. i would think that webbing is "better" because there is much more surface area on the ice to dissipate "stuff" but that's a guess on my part. i'm sure someone else can provide us with a more technical opinion.

 

The loser of the "Post like" Catbirdseat contest.

 

Webbing would definitely do a better job of spreading the forces out. It would melt out faster due to the larger surface area absorbing heat from the sun.

[thelawgoddess]

It would melt out faster due to the larger surface area absorbing heat from the sun.

somehow - as stated - i don't see this as an issue.

i don't think it really makes a huge difference which you use.

does it?

[Jason_Martin]

Alpine ice is incredibly variable. As a result, you should look at each situation seperately and not confine yourself to one idea. Sometimes alpine ice really is hard ice and other times it's just really hard snow. Take each situation for what it is. Sometimes a V-thread will not be enough. Other times it will be fine.

 

In the end, if you really think a cordellete is too thin and might rip out in the conditions you encounter, I don't think I would trust a piece of webbing either.

 

Jason

[catbirdseat]

Alpine ice is incredibly variable. As a result, you should look at each situation seperately and not confine yourself to one idea. Sometimes alpine ice really is hard ice and other times it's just really hard snow. Take each situation for what it is. Sometimes a V-thread will not be enough. Other times it will be fine.

 

In the end, if you really think a cordellete is too thin and might rip out in the conditions you encounter, I don't think I would trust a piece of webbing either.

 

Jason

I've rappelled from "really hard snow" before on several occasions. We didn't have ice screws. All we had were ice axes and 1" double length slings. By pounding the spike repeatedly into the edge of a moat, a hole was bored through which the sling was passed. I was glad to have the wide material for this. Perlon cord would have just cut right through.

[Dru]

in AI either you can use a bollard, or else its WI and its just like ice craggin

[fern]

 

carry whatever you can carry lots of and double or triple up on your threads. I don't think any theoretical incremental advantage between cord or webbing measures up to the advantage of backing up your anchors.

[thelawgoddess]

i generally carry both cord and webbing in varying lengths ... since you never know what's up. literally.

[layton]

Jason Martin and Dru are on the money! If you are on alpine ice and you come across water ice, fuck yeah! vthread that shit. if it's snow, bollard. Webbing is a plus on bollards, but i usually just have the rope run inside the bollard w/o using a sling. in fact i've never rapped off webbing on a bollard. you'd better be backing that up with a picket or something. if the 1st makes it down ok, then it's good to go and pull your back up. make sure the 1st rapper makes an anchor of sorts (good stance even) before you commit in case you pull it. always have Fatty rap first.

[Don_Serl]

catbirdseat: i like that idea of whanging a hole thru a moat-rim with an ice-axe shaft. i learned something new today. a couple tied double-runners of 1" tape are always nice to have along, eh?

 

other ideas, from experience:

 

1. i've set a double-length 1" tape sling in a bollard-shaped groove in heavy, isothermal spring snow, then shoveled snow over it and stomped it in. let it set a cpl minutes, and SIX people pulling on a rope downslope couldn't pull that sucker out.

 

2. i recall hearing about some guys needing to set a rap anchor in snow on the moose's tooth. they had a newspaper with them, so they rolled it up, T-slotted it in a trench with a sling around it, buried it, and away they went. a stuff-sack partially filled with snow is easily capable of the same thing. (you ever notice how strong an anchor for a tent guy-line you can make using a baggie with a bit of snow in it?)

 

anybody else got strong-but funky rap anchor tales?

 

cheers,

[forrest_m]

coming off the s. butt. of tiedemann, we rapped off an 12" x 6" x 3" rock we found lying in the snow, buried as a deadman.

 

i've done a lot of raps while trying to navigate complex icefalls by just slinging the rope around ice horns/blocks/etc, good for those "nuisance rappels" because you don't have to screw around with slings, etc. Many times in these places, there are big old blocks or towers that have collapsed and then partly merged with the surrounding ice. You can often wrap the rope all the way over/around these features, and these can often be made REALLY secure just by improving the lip a tiny bit with an ice axe to create a slot for the rope. Pulling the rope isn't ususally a problem if it's ice, even if the rope is wrapped back and forth around something because ice is, uh, slippery.

[Dru]

a neat trick you will find when rapping off a bollard with the rope directly around the bollasrd is related to pressure melting. you see when you are on rap the rope exerts pressure on the hard snow causing surficial melting. when you go off rap, wham, no pressure, melt freezes almost instantly and the ice instanly freezes your rope to the snow making for a cluster fuck trying to pull it down.

 

so: pll on BOTH ends hard (causing the melt again) then suddenly let go of one and you should be able to pull it without it freezing again.

 

i read about this somewhere, then tried it myself and it worked.

 

but in general "Bollards are the cheapest anchor available. Each one only costs about a year of your life expectancy." - Bill Durtler.

[Jason_Martin]

About two years ago, we buried a powerbar in hard late season snow on Mt. Baker, tied it off with a cordelette, and then lastly tied a rope to it. We subsequently began bouncing on it, adding more and more people to the rope. It took five people bouncing on the rope to blow out the anchor!

 

On a less interesting note, I've rappelled off rocks buried in the snow with a sling tied to them a number of times.

 

Jason

[catbirdseat]

About two years ago, we buried a powerbar in hard late season snow on Mt. Baker, tied it off with a cordelette, and then lastly tied a rope to it. We subsequently began bouncing on it, adding more and more people to the rope. It took five people bouncing on the rope to blow out the anchor!

 

Jason

That is an approved use of the Power Bar. However, whatever you do don't bite into one.

[Dru]

the inventor of the powerbar recently died from a heart attack at the age of 51.

 

i am waiting for someone to spin the yarn of rapping off a frozen rainier blue-bag... c'mon spill...