Foreign Policy Question

[j_b]

innocents (on both sides of the conflict to be sure) have died for years, so it's not recent. and they have been shooting rockets at crowded buildings and cars from helos and such for quite a while now.

 

I see the next step they might take as what I described...firing missles into crowds at rallys etc.

 

it's unfortunately much easier to think of the unthinkable these days.

[tele_nut]

If you don't live in a place where you can can die on a daily basis then you really have no basis to even discuss this issue. What do you really know? Do you know what it's like to see body parts sprayed all over your neighborhood? Do you know what it's like to carry a weapon in urban combat? Do you know what it feels like to have to think about getting blown to pieces every day? Have friends or family vaporized by some brain dead terrorist zombie? How can you judge their actions from the security and disassociation you enjoy?

 

Move over there for a couple of years, or put a few years over in Iraq then come correct. Do you think those people in Oklahoma weren't thirsting for revenge?

[Kelamuku]

Interesting thought, but I'm unsure of one thing. I understand the point that you are making about having to live the type of existance that many in third world countries do. However are you trying to say that Israel because of living under the constant threat of terrorism is justified in killing innocents on Palestine? Wouldn't Palistinians be justified in bombing Israel again.

 

While I believe that people effected by violent acts often want revenge I also believe that once achieved it is never as satisfying as percieved.

 

Call me idealistic or even nieve but what would happen if Israel didn't retaliate to a Palistinian terrorist attack.

Could this possibly change the perception? Maybe not today or even tomorrow but possibly over time, and since the current strike, counter strike method has not worked....Anyway just a thought.

 

I do empathise with you for having seen so much carnage firsthand, I found that talking with those who have shared simular experiences helps.

 

Mahalo and Aloha....

[j_b]

How can you judge their actions from the security and disassociation you enjoy?

 

i don't claim to speak for any of the participants to these tragedies. wouldn't you think that someone remote from these actions, yet informed and rational, is in fact best suited to assess their sanity?

[tele_nut]

How can you judge their actions from the security and disassociation you enjoy?

 

i don't claim to speak for any of the participants to these tragedies. wouldn't you think that someone remote from these actions, yet informed and rational, is in fact best suited to assess their sanity?

 

No.

[Off_White]

Do you think those people in Oklahoma weren't thirsting for revenge?

 

The desire for revenge is understandable, and I can easily imagine any number of scenarios where I could be consumed by it, but in no way does that make it a noble response or exemplify the best of what makes us human. I believe that your presence in the situations you describe is largely voluntary, something you've sought out for your own reasons that have little to do with empathetic humanitarian impulses. As such, your opinion carries no more weight than anyone who hasn't lived through it. Most of the people you are ostensibly wringing your hands over have had no choice in the matter.

[tele_nut]

OW..uh yeah..whatever dude.

[tele_nut]

That's like telling a firefighter that their presence at a fire is invalid because they did not initiate the arson which created it.

[Ratboy]

It took you 9 hours to come up with a better retort and that was it?

[sexual_chocolate]

If you don't live in a place where you can can die on a daily basis then you really have no basis to even discuss this issue.

 

You have successfully recused yourself from any future discussions regarding this issue.

 

Thank you! Thank you very much!

[tele_nut]

If you don't live in a place where you can can die on a daily basis then you really have no basis to even discuss this issue.

 

You have successfully recused yourself from any future discussions regarding this issue.

 

Thank you! Thank you very much!

 

Actually I've lived in Baghdad, Iraq about 80% of my time the past year, and I will be back there again very soon. I've also been to some other nasty places in my life so how about choking on that cup of shut the fuck up now?

 

[skykilo]

Just to be a smart ass, I'd like to draw your attention to the fact that death is always a possibility, any day of the week, regardless of where one lives.

[tele_nut]

Do you see me playing tiddly winks and sucking on a latte in some Bohemian cafe? Tell me something I don't know.

 

At any rate I am all for collateral damage. What terrorists understand is that it is human nature to NOT retaliate in the worst possible manner possible. They take advantage of world opinion in order to further their aims. Instead of a discussion about what shitheads the terrorists are we engage in trite commentary about what world leader we can rip on ONCE AGAIN from the safety of our living rooms.

 

Id say if Israel were handed carte blanche to do what they wanted the palestinians would be facing genocide. Ironic since the nation of Israel was created after a genocide they nearly succumbed to. They know the worst case scenario and they don't want to fall victim to it again.

[sexual_chocolate]

If you don't live in a place where you can can die on a daily basis then you really have no basis to even discuss this issue.

 

You have successfully recused yourself from any future discussions regarding this issue.

 

Thank you! Thank you very much!

 

Actually I've lived in Baghdad, Iraq about 80% of my time the past year, and I will be back there again very soon. I've also been to some other nasty places in my life so how about choking on that cup of shut the fuck up now?

 

So if I was to visit Baghdad, only that would then give me the authority to speak about US policy? Surely you jest.

 

You also overlook the fact that these people spraying their bodyparts across neighborhoods in Iraq wouldn't be doing so if the US had stayed the fuck out of a country they had absolutely no right to invade. Think about that as you go back to endanger your own life and those around you.

 

I went to the rally downtown, and the most powerful speaker was a former navy captain who had been serving in Iraq just last year. He was a PR guy, and finally had a nervous breakdown cuz of the lies they had him spewing to the media. The doubts about the administration's position, according to him, have penetrated top brass, but duty holds them to continue serving; he couldn't. Now he's an eloquent anti-war speaker, doing his best to expose the lies of this administration.

 

But I feel for you; you're undoubtedly in a most difficult situation, and I pray that this situation can be resolved in a way that brings hope to everybody.

[tele_nut]

C'mon, don't be that IRRITATINGLY naive as to suggest that making a short tourist visit to anywhere that may be war torn would enlighten YOU. You gotta get in there, dig around, walk around in the JDAM riddled Baath party HQ, travel the roads, interact with the people, experience some danger, breath the nasty air.

 

I am suggesting that exposure to an event would give you a clearer picture of what the situation is. I can imagine the crux pitch of the nose because I saw it on an Erik Perlman video once and Dan Osman gave me a firsthand account. I am now an expert on Nose policy and nailing issues? I can now sit across from someone who actually climbed the nose and tell them what’s what? Exchange beta? “Well dude, according to Masters of Stone I KNOW I need a 50M rope to nail the King Swing!!!! Give me a break.

 

Clearly I am wasting my time and my breath trying to bring this point home here. I would say many here are about as informed as someone who read "Into Thin Air" and now feels like they can sit back and comment on the state of guiding or climbing even if they have never climbed a mountain in their life. Did this not happen? Is this happening in almost every instance of your lives as you get brain dumped by CNN and FoxNews everyday?

 

From what I am seeing on the news I would make this analogy. When there is a climbing accident, and the news media reports it, do you not feel a twang of annoyance because they have absolutely NO clue what mountains, climbing, or the events relating to the accident are actually about? Do you feel like they have butchered such events in the past and sensationalized them while at the same time doing somewhat of a disservice to the actual event in progress? Everyone is EXTREME this and EXPERIENCED that. Well the current level of reporting on many events relating to policy and events overseas are about as intelligent. They are spreading fear into you because you let them, and you form opinions based on not what you know because you have been there, but because of what you have been TOLD. It is an election year is it not? Think about it.

 

You are free to comment as much as you want about whatever you want and that is the freedom this country enjoys. Yet, you shit all over the same system that has empowered you, and at the same time villianize those that don't think just like you because you are filled with doubt and fear of your way of life. You would rather hide in your box, debate the topics, criticize the persons who are on the stage.

 

As far as your NAVY captain speaking out about the war in Iraq. I would tell you that the ONLY positions a navy captain would hold would be low level positions in some paper pushing rear area in what is a ground war/ guerrilla area dominated by Army and Marine Corps assets. A navy captain has little access to classified documents and therefore very little of the big picture is fed to them. PR is and will always be PR. It is laughable to me that a Navy officer could speak eloquently about anything except the state of the chow hall and his or her bulging gut.

 

There are thousands of people running patrols in every area of Iraq being exposed to real danger and they aren't having breakdowns. They are doing their jobs and doing them well. The real folks are either engaged presently in the war in Iraq, Afghanistan, or training for the next rotation.

 

Furthermore, don't feel for me. I feel for you. The edge of your real understanding extends to about the end of your nose. A nose probably stuck in front of this brain damage box about 99% of your time.

[tele_nut]

Oh yeah, and if you had BEEN to Iraq and actually TALKED to some of the poeple who lived there you would KNOW FIRSTHAND about the sick shit the Saddam Baathists were doing to their own people for years and years. You would know that there are mass graves all over Iraq, random killings, rapes, and torture. So I would say that a few of them getting blown up for the hope of a better tomorrow is a small price to pay.

[Fairweather]

One of the more popular claims of the western left prior to the Iraq war was that 'five thousand children per month' were dying under UN sanctions. (Even while Saddam was building palaces, and UN and French government officials were skimming huge sums of money from the oil-for-food program!) It has now been 12 months since we removed Saddam from power, so is it fair to assume that we have saved 60,000 Iraqi children to date, and untold more into the future? Shall we subtract these salvaged lives from those we were forced to take while removing the bastards Saddam, Uday, and Kusay, and claim a net gain of lives saved? By the very logic that the anti-american left employs, have we not actually saved lives? I'm not trying to distill Iraqi human lives down to mere statistics, but even when you remove all the humanity from the equation, don't those on the left lose the argument?

 

Flame away you lefty bastards.

[sexual_chocolate]

I don't quite understand your point.

 

If your point is that whoever hasn't been to Iraq cannot comment on the situation, then I feel your thinking to be clouded, and rather emotively so;

 

If your point is that YOU are much more the authority on Iraq because you serve there as a functionary of the US military, then I feel your thinking to be clouded even more so.

 

You seem to have little grasp of the larger context at play here, choosing only to zero in on what you wish to see, but that is exactly what makes you an effective player in the ground game; if you allowed doubt about your mission to creep in, as many many many soldiers have, you'd go mad.

 

Let me ask you a question:

 

How long do you think this continual violence will go on in Iraq?

Remember, initially we were told Iraqis would welcome us with open arms as soon as we rolled in, and the violence would end in a couple of months;

 

then we were told that "a few Baathists and foreigners" were "causing trouble", but they'd be rooted out quickly;

 

now we're told to brace for an upsurge in violence running up to the hand-over in June.

 

Is it possible that the violence will continue unabated, with more and more of the Iraqi population slowly taking up arms (since opinion polls taken there seem to indicate a strong desire for the US to leave)?

 

When will enough be enough?

 

1 year and 1,000 servicemen killed?

2 years and 2,000 servicemen killed?

5 years and....never mind the civilian casualties happening every day that we don't hear about.

 

Seem unlikely? What seems to me unlikely is that there will be any change while either the US, or a US installed puppet regime is in power.

 

The hornet's nest has been shaken, and the shit's hitting the fan; maybe this is exactly what the neo-cons wanted: perpetual war. I'm afraid we're gonna have it, too.

Now Africa is coming more into focus as a source of "terrorists"; just another continent we've managed to piss off.

We've alienated the fuck out of everyone (the icing on the cake would another four years); I think we're just seeing the tip of the iceberg in terms of repercussions.

 

Ahhh the fruits of violence; how sweet they taste. You'd think we'd learn! Crazy huh? As the lone superpower, we have a special responsibility to actually help foster a more equitabe and just world, but all we're doing is trying to entrench our hegemony. What absolute madness!

 

I think we both (all) know that the current administration's peace is actually continual war; some peace, huh? Double-speak in action.

 

It is imperative that anyone and everyone who is worried about the trends we are seeing with this administration do anything and everything they can to make sure that in November, the neo-cons no longer have control over this wonderful country.

[j_b]

tele nut: you are essentially saying that the judge and the jurors in any courtroom do not have the experience necessary to decide whether joe blow broke the law because they are not criminals themselves. think about it.

 

moreover tele nut, since you think the way you do, how can you justify taking order from people like bush, cheney, rumsfeld, etc ... who have no personal experience dealing with the situations you describe ... i don't suspect you are telling them what to do, are you?

 

Fairweather: joe blow's diet changed and he does not eat 10 toddlers for breakfast anymore. instead, now, he only eats 2 adults. do you think he should be commended for saving 8 human lives per day? ... (we were the party behind the continuing enforcement of the sanctions that cost so many lives)

[sexual_chocolate]

One of the more popular claims of the western left prior to the Iraq war was that 'five thousand children per month' were dying under UN sanctions. (Even while Saddam was building palaces, and UN and French government officials were skimming huge sums of money from the oil-for-food program!) It has now been 12 months since we removed Saddam from power, so is it fair to assume that we have saved 60,000 Iraqi children to date, and untold more into the future? Shall we subtract these salvaged lives from those we were forced to take while removing the bastards Saddam, Uday, and Kusay, and claim a net gain of lives saved? By the very logic that the anti-american left employs, have we not actually saved lives? I'm not trying to distill Iraqi human lives down to mere statistics, but even when you remove all the humanity from the equation, don't those on the left lose the argument?

 

Flame away you lefty bastards.

 

This lefty was against both the horribly implemented UN sanctions program, AND the war (how's that for flaming?)

 

Yes the irony hasn't been lost on me that if the person I voted for in the last election were prez (Gore), the sanctions would have continued unabated(?), with exactly the results you speak of (I lost my nerve and compromised, pulling my vote from Nader; what a principled schmuck I am!).

[sexual_chocolate]

jeez look at us: saturday at 11 pm and we're arguing politics on the internet!

[j_b]

we could be doing worse, like watching the tube

[sexual_chocolate]

i'm actually watching the tube: jimmy tingle on c-span; funny funny astute guy!

[tele_nut]

 

My point was simple. You (the average liberal sitting on your ass and having sat on your ass watching television for the past year are a poor judge of what is going on in the middle east, PERIOD!) You can comment all you want. My point is that whatever you may post is often tainted, twisted, and way off track. Like most of what you have surmised in each of your postings including the last one. Most of what I read here is all the same spoonfed mindless gibberish that I have come to expect from the liberal minded folks of sunless Washington. Did SADD affect all of your minds so permanently? Or maybe it just turned your spines to jelly?

 

Second, for the millionth time since you are only paying attention whenever you feel like it on these political threads. I am not a soldier. I am not a mindless drone. I am the tyranny of evil men. I have fully elaborated my understandings of this war in other threads. In short here it is. Oil, money, power. We have it. They want it. People like you (the weak) want to give it away so our children and grandchildren can live in a disadvantaged future. Fuck that and fuck all noble ideals that sell us out. I for one am not going to give away everything previous generations have strived to provide for us in this country because it's socially cool and it's been programmed into your little liberal minds that *we* are somehow always wrong and *they* are right.

 

Do you really fucking believe that I don't have access to every piece of information you have? Of course I do because the ONLY info you have is the same info I can read every day online, in a newspaper, or watch on TV. DO YOU HAVE THE SAME INFORMATION THAT I HAVE? The kind you get from living in Iraq day in and day out? It's called living the current situation. Have you been 10 feet from Donald Rumsfeld in the last month? Or is the closest you have been 10 feet from your TV? Catch my drift her bud?

 

How would you know that anyone in Iraq with even an inkling of distrust in the current administration are going mad as you put it? Have you been there? Have you been to Vietnam? Did you serve in Korea? WW2, WW1 or any service whatsoever to your country regardless of whether you agreed with it or not? I HIGHLY DOUBT IT.

 

Opinion polls are not indicating any such thing as the Iraqi's want us to leave. On the contrary. They are scared shitless we will leave. I will point out for you that sovereignty returns to the Iraqi's in less that 4 months. They signed a constitution the other day. You know how I know that? I was there. I had to sit thru hours and endless hours of negotiations getting few hours of sleep a night over 7000 miles away from my home while you probably slept like a baby safe and sound next to your wife with your kids in the other room. Hey, that must be rough. What should I do today since my life is so rough? I'll rag some dude on CC.com who has been to Iraq with my bullshit rhethoric! YEAH

 

So, in your business are you always able to pinpoint every X-Factor immediately? Are you able to predict them beforehand? Are you able to solve each and every problem with the utmost efficiency? Yeah, I didn't think so. So how in the world can whole nations plan for and predict and immediately fix every problem that arises? We are talking about nation building almost from scratch with three distinct factions at work here (Shiite, Shia, Kurd). There are alot of moving parts at work here, and there are certainly elements that would like to see us fail. As far as I am concerned they already kicked your ass because you are, were, and will continue to play into their hands with your worry wart attitude.

 

You know the quickest way to bring our boys home and get this shit over with? Since you SEEM to be so concerned. Give em 110% of your support, quit talking shit and meelie mouthing at fuckhead peace rallies, hang a flag over your house, and have some pride in where you come from. Quit being afraid of what the world thinks about us and quit worrying about some other mans son being killed in combat. it's a big boy arena and big boy rules apply. I've been shot at, mortared, rocketed, driven past horrific tragedies and basically had to deal with all the shit. What do you REALLY care? You remind me of that guy in Forrest Gump that beats up Jenny because he's so damned stressed about Nixon and war in Vietnam as he rides the hippy bus to protest parties with his fraudulent agenda.

 

Hey here's a good idea stud. Spit on a Marine Corp Lance Corporal to protest the war and Bush. See what kind of response that gets ya.

[Ratboy]

This is the funniest thread I've read on this board in a long time!