Thanks George!

[MrDoolittle]

Foreign Policy Diasater Continued

 

"U.S. soldiers from the nearby "Green Zone" attempted to go into the area to rescue victims but were driven back by angry Iraqis."

 

So much for winning their hearts and minds...

[Ratboy]

I'm the first to say our policy in Iraq and treatment of civilians there has been atrocious, but I didn't read anything in that article that pointed blame at the troops for anything other than trying to protect bystanders in case there was another bomb.

[MrDoolittle]

My point is that the Iraqi poeple, at least in this case, were not perceiving the Americans to be on their side. And if this applies to the whole of Iraq, that means that the citizens don't trust the US troops, or may even see them as the enemy.

[scott_harpell]

And if this applies to the whole of Iraq

 

which it doesn't.

[Dave_Schuldt]

We have created a "failed state". A magnet for all radicals.

[lummox]

stfu about election bullshit already. there will be months of that crap ahead.

[MrDoolittle]

And if this applies to the whole of Iraq

 

which it doesn't.

 

Thankfully you are basing this on first-hand information, otherwise you might have sounded like a dumbass, making generalizations about things you don't know shit about.

[klenke]

To give an example of a generalization, folks, I shall quote Mr. Doolittle (the generalization has been emboldened to make it easier for you to find):

"And if this applies to the whole of Iraq, that means that the citizens don't trust the US troops, or may even see them as the enemy."

 

Gottcha!

[cracked]

[backcountrydog]

he did say IF...meaning that it was open to debate, and that the conclusion (in bold letters) COULD be drawn 'if it applies...'

[klenke]

That is true, but it is still a generalization.

[backcountrydog]

yup...on St. Patties day too

[MrDoolittle]

To give an example of a generalization, folks, I shall quote Mr. Doolittle (the generalization has been emboldened to make it easier for you to find):

"And IF this applies to the whole of Iraq, that means that the citizens don't trust the US troops, or may even see them as the enemy."

 

Gottcha!

 

 

[scott_harpell]

And if this applies to the whole of Iraq

 

which it doesn't.

 

Thankfully you are basing this on first-hand information, otherwise you might have sounded like a dumbass, making generalizations about things you don't know shit about.

 

So you are saying that ALL of Iraq has this viewpoint? How is it me that is the one generalizing? I said that not every person in and entire country of millions feels the way you imply. How is this generalizing?

[scott_harpell]

he did say IF...meaning that it was open to debate, and that the conclusion (in bold letters) COULD be drawn 'if it applies...'

 

Yeah, he said if. But if it weren't the point would be void. He implied that they were, so as to validate him point. What is the point in saying "if" if it is known to be false? Or are you presupposing that every citizen in the coutry feels this way? What about the article made you feel that EVERY person in this coutry felt this way? Inquiring minds want to know.

[marylou]

Uh, why on earth would the Iraqui people see us as anything OTHER than the enemy? Sure, Saddam was/is a bad man, but we INVADED their country. Now we are occupying it.

 

Sure as shit they see us as the enemy, and with good reason.

[JayB]

Uh, why on earth would the Iraqui people see us as anything OTHER than the enemy? Sure, Saddam was/is a bad man, but we INVADED their country. Now we are occupying it.

 

Sure as shit they see us as the enemy, and with good reason.

 

For those seeking to reimpose Baathist party rule, this may indeed be true. However, there is an abundance of public opinion polls, editorial pieces penned by Iraqis, Iraqi webloggers, and the conduct of the average Iraqis itself to consider, the sum of which paint a very different picture, which in turn suggests that your statement may be in need of a good bit of qualification, at the very least.

[klenke]

Why on Earth:

 

No doubt some percentage of Iraqis feel the U.S. are the enemy. They may even be enemies of the Western World (Europe, America, etc.) in ideology much less whether or not the coilition is an occupying entity.

 

So, when you speak of the Iraqis, Marylou & Doolittle, are you speaking of all of them across ethnicities and sects, or simply the Sunnis. I'm sure the Kurds don't want us there now, but they sure did like our help when it came to overthrowing Saddam. The Shiites also liked the fact that we overthrew the Baathists, which were dominated by Sunnis. I recall seeing images of Iraqis (mainly Shiites in the south but also Sunnis in the triangle) welcoming the U.S. Army with open arms. I remember images of whupping it up, crowd simul-hopping (whatever that action is called), and other signs of support. Were these images staged? I'd like to think not, that at least some of the Iraqi people were happy for what we had done for them. I saw just as much footage of unhappy Iraqis. Both types of people were to be expected. I really can't say what the percentages were but I certainly won't generalize by saying it was all or none one way or the other.

 

And yet, how quickly they must forget.

 

The war has happened, the regime toppled. That can't be undone. So now those that were against the war in the first place must move somewhat on from protesting that action. Now, those that were against the war should be shouting out about how we should deal with the Iraq situation going forward.

 

What should we do now?

The enemy of the U.S. now is not the Iraqi people (I think we can agree there). The enemy is now the terrorists within Iraq supposing to have the support of the Iraqi people.

What should we do over there?

Should we pull out now, 3 months, 10 months, when the democracy seed has finally sprouted roots?

 

I'd like to hear some proactive ideas, not reactive complaints as to what has already happened. I'm willing to listen to proactive solutions. I tire of reactive complaints. Anyone? Anyone?

[cracked]

I find it amazing how people tend to simply ignore evidence that goes against their opinion. It doesn't reflect on them very well. Or maybe they're just dumb?

[Ratboy]

I'd like to hear some proactive ideas, not reactive complaints as to what has already happened. I'm willing to listen to proactive solutions. I tire of reactive complaints. Anyone? Anyone?

 

I say get them governing themselves and get our boys and girls home. We seem to be on that path att the moment. I was against going in there, particuarly the way we did, but now that we are there we need to do this thing right and get out.

 

And Bush needs to go for getting us into this in the first place (among other reasons).

[scott_harpell]

I find it amazing how people tend to simply ignore evidence that goes against their opinion. It doesn't reflect on them very well. Or maybe they're just dumb?

 

Hey dumb-ass! Where is the proof that all of the Iraquis are enemies of the U.S. soldiers? Where is your evidence? Stupid faquin kid.

[marylou]

I don't really see any easy resolution to the situation Iraq is faced with today. Like it or not, it's a huge mess. We changed the landscape by overthrowing the regime/gov't, but the new landscape doesn't hold a lot of promise for a workable solution.

 

Paul, perhaps others share my position on this...which might explain why you aren't hearing a lot of solutions from people who didn't support the invasion in the first place.

[scott_harpell]

I'd like to hear some proactive ideas, not reactive complaints as to what has already happened. I'm willing to listen to proactive solutions. I tire of reactive complaints. Anyone? Anyone?

 

I say get them governing themselves and get our boys and girls home. We seem to be on that path att the moment. I was against going in there, particuarly the way we did, but now that we are there we need to do this thing right and get out.

 

And Bush needs to go for getting us into this in the first place (among other reasons).

 

[cracked]

I find it amazing how people tend to simply ignore evidence that goes against their opinion. It doesn't reflect on them very well. Or maybe they're just dumb?

 

Hey dumb-ass! Where is the proof that all of the Iraquis are enemies of the U.S. soldiers? Where is your evidence? Stupid faquin kid.

Scott, WTF are you talking about? I was pointing out that the assumption that all Iraquis hate us is false. Note the ambiguity in my previous post though, the statement could be made for either side. You fell for it, assuming that by responding to Jay's post I was disagreeing with him. Who's the stupid faqing kid now?

 

Allison, I'm afraid I was simply pointing out the fact that your earlier assertion is simply false. I've read enough first-person Iraqi accounts from people who were overjoyed that Saddam was removed from power to know that no all Iraqis view the US as enemies. I never asked for solutions, I was simply saying that you're wrong. I know you'd rather bitch about the current state of affairs rather than do anything to improve them. You don't have to repeat yourself.

 

What I don't like about politics is that it usually consists of incoherent, hate-filled rehetoric full of catch phrases and pigheadedness, with a decided lack of real arguments. Sad. There are a very few people here (and in general) who base their arguments on logic and accept the fact that their opponent has good points, too. But the majority, whether conservative or liberal, don't. Lack of intelligence? Maybe, but most of these people aren't particularly dumb. Weird.

[scott_harpell]

Well ya fetal alchoholic chode sniffing nancy boi, you posted that right after klenke posted.