Gary_Yngve Posted March 3, 2004 Posted March 3, 2004 I'm looking at all my screws and the shortest is 17 cm. I want a shorter one!!! Quote
Stonehead Posted March 3, 2004 Posted March 3, 2004 I always thought that those guys who carried the longest ice screws were like those that drove the biggest trucks, compensatory behavior to make up for the lack thereof in other departments. Seems best to carry a variety of sizes rather than the longest size is best mentality (of course, I'd carry more of the longer sizes). Stubbies make sense in thin ice. Quote
Gary_Yngve Posted March 3, 2004 Author Posted March 3, 2004 The first two screws I bought were 22cm, intended for glacial ice. Then I bought a 17cm. Then I picked up two more 17cms for cheap. Now I guess I should fork out the money for a 12cm. Quote
icegirl Posted March 3, 2004 Posted March 3, 2004 just tie off with a runner and you have a more fully functional screw. In my reasonably limited experience, you will rarely use a stubby and can make due when you don't have one, but will rue the day that the stubby is the last screw on your rack... Quote
Dru Posted March 3, 2004 Posted March 3, 2004 tie offs suck, and fail at low strengths stubbies are fast to place and just as strong as full length screws  i have placed a 22cm like once a year recently. but i place 10cm and 13cm on like every route Quote
snoboy Posted March 3, 2004 Posted March 3, 2004 Â Tied off ice screws are bad news. Much weaker than shorties. Can't remember source - BD testing I think?? Quote
John Frieh Posted March 3, 2004 Posted March 3, 2004 BD product design manager did the testing along with a climbing magazine writer: it appeared in climbing mag a few years ago (I'd have to dig throught the pile... let me know if you want me too... it was the issue that covered routes on Robson). I loved the picture on the last page: the caption was the carnage and it was a pic of this pile of broken screws, biners, ice axes, etc. Tie offs are sketch at best. Quote
Ducknut Posted March 3, 2004 Posted March 3, 2004 Actually Craig Luebben has a section in his book,How to Ice Climb (a Falcon Press book) about how weak a tied-off screw can be. As I remember the sling changes the dynamic and works like a lever, he had failures with some down in the 800 lbs range. Â Â Â Quote
icegirl Posted March 3, 2004 Posted March 3, 2004 thanks for the input, I will check them out. if you are placing stubbies are you trusting those placement (virtual gear), or are you sticking with the theory of "don't fall on ice"? Quote
ken4ord Posted March 3, 2004 Posted March 3, 2004 tie offs suck, and fail at low strengths stubbies are fast to place and just as strong as full length screws  i have placed a 22cm like once a year recently. but i place 10cm and 13cm on like every route   Agreed, tie offs are so suck.  Icegirl as for your question, The real short ones, I hope I never really have to trust, the 13cm's I would trust just as much as the 17's. It is really dependent on the ice conditions and the length of the whipper I am looking at, though. Quote
scott_harpell Posted March 3, 2004 Posted March 3, 2004 thanks for the input, I will check them out. if you are placing stubbies are you trusting those placement (virtual gear), or are you sticking with the theory of "don't fall on ice"? Â stubbies are just as strong as long ones placed all the way in. It is counter-intuitive, but true. Quote
Dru Posted March 3, 2004 Posted March 3, 2004 the length of the part of the screw with threads is just as long on a 13cm, as on a 22cm, and it is the threads that hold you in good ice. Â in really shitty sun-rotted ice a long screw may be a bit better due to the picket effect. Â a 10cm does have a few less threads than a 13cm so it may be marginally weaker but i have seen a vid of someone whipping on a 10cm and it held so they are probably good. i have never fallen leading ice so i just assume they hold. Quote
cracked Posted March 3, 2004 Posted March 3, 2004 thanks for the input, I will check them out. if you are placing stubbies are you trusting those placement (virtual gear), or are you sticking with the theory of "don't fall on ice"? Â stubbies are just as strong as long ones placed all the way in. It is counter-intuitive, but true. Only in good ice. As Luebben and Harmston's tests show, any screw is hard ice is bomber. Any screw in shitty ice is shitty. In ok ice a longer screw is stronger. Tie-offs suck. Quote
Gary_Yngve Posted March 3, 2004 Author Posted March 3, 2004 Also Mark Twight mentions in Extreme Alpinism that tieoffs suck. As for "don't fall on ice," that's my philosophy too, but you may as well have some screws in just in case to protect the belay, in case you get hit by rockfall/icefall while climbing, etc. Quote
icegirl Posted March 4, 2004 Posted March 4, 2004 I knew I read it somewhere... not that it really matters. Â page 97, Ice World, Jeff Lowe... Â For very thin ice, thread a few of your screws throught the tight openings sewn into the ends of quickdraw-type runners. As soon as the screw touches the rock, it is a simple matter to wind this runner down the threads to the iceto create an excellent tie-off at the ice surface. This precludes the need to cary shorter screws and allows the use of screws in series, as recommended for thin ice in the technique section of this book. Quote
Dru Posted March 4, 2004 Posted March 4, 2004 we are saying...tests prove Lowe was wrong. It wouldn't be the first time Quote
icegirl Posted March 4, 2004 Posted March 4, 2004 like I said, not that it really matters, I agree you are correct by the data that has been offered, just thought for a second that I was imagining I read it somewhere, and had to prove to self... Â but... he's still climbin'... right? Quote
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