Teamsters Play Hardball with Darigold

[scott_harpell]

Unions are there so you dont have to change jobs. What good is it if you have to change jobs to get the benefeits you want? Can't you do this on your own without someone putting their hand in your pockets? This isn't 1912 New York by the way.

 

So, you're saying that it's someone else's responsibility to ensure you get the wages and benefits you want? If employer "A" isn't offering what you want to meet your personal wealth goals, then look for another employer. No employer is required to give you what you want; it's up to you to seek it out and secure it for yourself.

 

Exactly. Why pay someone to do something you are fully capable of doing yourself? That is why i said this isn't 1912. Back then, they did their thing, but now they are antiquated and obsolete.

[marylou]

I'm sure you have a lot of incentive to work harder knowing twenty poor guys with less time then you would get laid off first in a downturn, or knowing that they can't get bigger pay raises then you because the Union doesn't allow pay for performance.

 

My union absolutely allows for this. Labor contracts establish minimums for pay and working conditions.

 

how can it be fair that a Union locks someone out of a job because they do not want to join? Un-American, pure and simple extortion.

 

We've already been over this. Unions don't do this. You have to pay the local for the cost of collective bargaining. You do NOT have to join the union. Let's try to argue the facts here instead of making things up.

 

Union’s strive to keep the over achievers beaten down so the rest of the work force doesn’t look pathetic and pulls up the underachievers; sad way to run a work force.

 

You're delusional if you think that's how a labor union is run.

[Greg_W]

Union’s strive to keep the over achievers beaten down so the rest of the work force doesn’t look pathetic and pulls up the underachievers; sad way to run a work force.

 

You're delusional if you think that's how a labor union is run.

 

Don't tell me that experiences I've had didn't happen. Who the fuck are you to speak for the actions of every labor union? This IS how some unions work and how they exist. I've seen it. You've never addressed the extortion, threats of violence, and other intimidation tactics. Unions in your world probably don't do this, either.

[mr.radon]

how can it be fair that a Union locks someone out of a job because they do not want to join? Un-American, pure and simple extortion.

 

We've already been over this. Unions don't do this. You have to pay the local for the cost of collective bargaining. You do NOT have to join the union. Let's try to argue the facts here instead of making things up.

 

Fact: You HAVE to pay the UNION!!!!!!

Fact: If you don't pay you don't work!!!!!

Fact: You have to request to only pay the "Beck" amount

Fact: You have to work under the UNION contract!!!

Wake up and smell the coffee. How can anyone say that the Court ruling for Mr. Beck single handedly made all the states Right-to-work states? It only prevents a Union from extorting political funds. You are still required to be card carrying union member in states without right-to-work laws just to work.

 

Union’s strive to keep the over achievers beaten down so the rest of the work force doesn’t look pathetic and pulls up the underachievers; sad way to run a work force.

 

You're delusional if you think that's how a labor union is run.

Sorry, but this is reality.

[marylou]

Don't tell me that experiences I've had didn't happen. ......Who the fuck are you to speak for the actions of every labor union? This IS how some unions work and how they exist. I've seen it.

 

Great, Greg, now you are an expert on unions. Perhaps you'd like to share your obvious wealth of information on them with us. I've only got 17 years of union experience, why not tell us all how it's done!

 

You've never addressed the extortion, threats of violence, and other intimidation tactics.

 

Kind of a silly thing to be arguing, so I didn't address it. Pretty much all of what I've seen has been far less glamourous than this. Contract negotiations, union meetings, difficult discussions among the members about how to save our health insurance (usually by voluntarily taking a pay freeze), dealing with the improper (or proper) termination of members, trying to stem the tide of companies increasingly going non-union, putting together a 401(k) plan and then having to sell it to our signatories....really, Greg, it's not at all like the movies!

[minx]

damn it! i hate agreeing with greg and mr. radon. there was a time and place for unions but now i truly question their values. do i have to hand in my membership card to the democratic party now?

[Hayduke]

It is becoming increasingly harder for regular working guys to get by.

 

Hmm...I get by okay. Maybe you should have thought about the longterm consequences of the lifestyle choices you made (i.e., having children) in light of your lack of marketable skills and ability to make money. Just a thought.

 

This comment says to me you think it is acceptable that in our society there is a social class who, in spite of the fact that they perform a job essential to our economy, they be paid so little they cannot afford to have children or own a home. Do you think there should be people who should work 40, 50, 60 hours a week and still not be able to afford the most basic amenities like a safe home to live in, a good school to send their children to, basic health care, etc. Do you think it is a necessary evil of capitalism that there exists a lower class ? How many people should occupy this social class Greg W? 1 million? 2 million? 10 million?

 

Not every person selling shirts at JCREW is 18 years old, there are 35 year olds with college degrees who decided that it is better to do something than be unemployed. Do you know how many underemployed or unemployed college grads there are out there? The next time you go to the store look at the guy pushing the shopping carts in the parking lot. How old is he?

 

 

Do you as a more wealthy successful American say "sucks to be you" and see ya wouldn't want to be ya" and "supersize my order, while your at it."

 

We all try to climb the ladder of success, but today there are more and more people hanging on to the bottom rung.

 

.

[Greg_W]

Don't tell me that experiences I've had didn't happen. ......Who the fuck are you to speak for the actions of every labor union? This IS how some unions work and how they exist. I've seen it.

 

Great, Greg, now you are an expert on unions. Perhaps you'd like to share your obvious wealth of information on them with us. I've only got 17 years of union experience, why not tell us all how it's done!

 

You've never addressed the extortion, threats of violence, and other intimidation tactics.

 

Kind of a silly thing to be arguing, so I didn't address it. Pretty much all of what I've seen has been far less glamourous than this. Contract negotiations, union meetings, difficult discussions among the members about how to save our health insurance (usually by voluntarily taking a pay freeze), dealing with the improper (or proper) termination of members, trying to stem the tide of companies increasingly going non-union, putting together a 401(k) plan and then having to sell it to our signatories....really, Greg, it's not at all like the movies!

 

Whatever. I never said I was an expert, but you can't necessarily claim to be one, either. Although your seething arrogance is so comforting. As I said at the outset of this thread, everyone has their stories. You have your experience and I have mine; one does not negate the reality of the other. Yours apparently has been all sunshine and daffodils. Mine has been snapshots of threatened violence and property damage, shiftlessness, shirking, extortion, and intimidation. It happens.

 

Greg_W

[mr.radon]

Seattle Times article below.

Wait didn't you say they don't have to join? How can we believe anything you spout out about your union experiences? You didn't know people can get fired? You think it's right to threaten people by firing them from their jobs? But wait you don't have to join.. Blah, blah, blah... LIAR

 

FACT:

2 Boeing workers fired, wouldn't pay union fee

 

By Kyung M. Song

Seattle Times aerospace reporter

 

E-mail this article

 

Print this article

 

 

At least two Boeing engineers were fired last week for refusing to pay fees to their union, becoming the first casualties since the engineers union last year won the right to make dues mandatory.

 

Paul Illian and Ken Hopping lost their jobs after the Society of Professional Engineering Employees in Aerospace (SPEEA) reported them to Boeing for failing to join or otherwise pay fees to the union. Two other engineers also refused to comply, but Boeing, citing employee confidentiality, would not confirm whether they were terminated as well.

 

Illian and Hopping did not participate in last year's 40-day strike by more than 15,000 Boeing engineers and technical workers in the Puget Sound area. As part of that strike settlement, Boeing agreed to let SPEEA workers vote to end voluntary union dues and allow SPEEA to levy agency fees on even those who choose not to become union members. The measure passed by a 77.4 percent margin among technicians and by 64 percent among the engineers.

 

SPEEA members pay $24.14 a month in dues. That's about 0.5 percent of monthly pay for Boeing engineers, who earned an average of $63,000 last year; technicians earned an average of $45,000.

 

Nonmembers must pay SPEEA the same amount in agency fees or donate the money to charities. Workers can also opt to become "Beck objectors" and pay slightly reduced dues if they don't want to pay for political contributions or organizing expenses.

 

SPEEA earlier this month turned over to Boeing the names of 20 people who had chosen none of those options. All but four eventually complied, according to SPEEA spokesman Bill Dugovich. The union contends not paying fees is unfair to the 20,000 SPEEA members, especially because nonmembers file grievances and benefit from contract negotiations as much as those who pay dues.

 

Ken Mercer, a Boeing spokesman, said the company was disappointed that it had to enforce the contract and let the workers go.

 

Illian and Hopping said they don't support SPEEA and believe the decision to pay dues should be theirs to make. Hopping, a software engineer, has worked for Boeing for 12 years. Illian is a 21-year Boeing veteran and developer of the Raven, a pedal-powered airplane.

 

Illian, who is job hunting, said he never would have joined Boeing if union membership had been required. "They changed the rules on me without my permission," Illian said.

[Rodchester]

That said, if you don't want to work in a union shop, work elsewhere. There are plenty of places to work where there is no collective bargaining agreement.

 

Curious...you make it sound like jobs are everywhere. So, do you think the economy is in that good of shape? Good enough to allow any worker to just stroll on in and get a non-union job?

 

 

Don't worry Illian and Hopping can just find work elsewhere after all those years of dedicated service.

Edited March 1, 2004 by Rodchester

[chucK]

Rodchester if you quibble with Marylou's statement do you also dispute Greg's that you can just get another job if you don't like how your current employer is treating you?

[Greg_W]

It is becoming increasingly harder for regular working guys to get by.

 

Hmm...I get by okay. Maybe you should have thought about the longterm consequences of the lifestyle choices you made (i.e., having children) in light of your lack of marketable skills and ability to make money. Just a thought.

 

This comment says to me you think it is acceptable that in our society there is a social class who, in spite of the fact that they perform a job essential to our economy, they be paid so little they cannot afford to have children or own a home. Do you think there should be people who should work 40, 50, 60 hours a week and still not be able to afford the most basic amenities like a safe home to live in, a good school to send their children to, basic health care, etc. Do you think it is a necessary evil of capitalism that there exists a lower class ? How many people should occupy this social class Greg W? 1 million? 2 million? 10 million?

 

Not every person selling shirts at JCREW is 18 years old, there are 35 year olds with college degrees who decided that it is better to do something than be unemployed. Do you know how many underemployed or unemployed college grads there are out there? The next time you go to the store look at the guy pushing the shopping carts in the parking lot. How old is he?

 

 

Do you as a more wealthy successful American say "sucks to be you" and see ya wouldn't want to be ya" and "supersize my order, while your at it."

 

We all try to climb the ladder of success, but today there are more and more people hanging on to the bottom rung.

 

.

 

Oh, I get it. You're job is essential so I should help pay for your life. Gee, thanks, I'm so honored. Can your kid come mow my lawn? It's the least he could do, since I'm probably paying for his education.

 

What I think is that people should take a look at what they want to achieve in life and make decisions based on this. Have a plan, for pete's sake. Let's talk about how many of these 35-year olds working at JCrew have degrees in 19th Century French Literature or Differential Multi-cultural Studies, or Balinese Interpretive Dance; in short, useless degrees that they pursued because it made them feel good.

 

No, as a moderately successful American, I say, "why can't you pull yourself up by your bootstraps?" I was raised with such examples in my family. One CAN rise to whatever level they want with dedication,hard work, and wise choices.

 

Greg_W

[marylou]

Wait didn't you say they don't have to join? How can we believe anything you spout out about your union experiences? You didn't know people can get fired? You think it's right to threaten people by firing them from their jobs? But wait you don't have to join.. Blah, blah, blah... LIAR

 

Nope, they don't have to join. Says right here below in your article:

 

lost their jobs after the Society of Professional Engineering Employees in Aerospace (SPEEA) reported them to Boeing for failing to join or otherwise pay fees to the union.

 

This is just what I explained before. Don't have to join, but in a union shop, you will have to instead pay agency fees, which is equal to what a union member pays minus money spent on political stuff.

 

 

 

... agency fees on even those who choose not to become union members.

 

There it is again.

 

 

 

 

Workers can also opt to become "Beck objectors" and pay slightly reduced dues if they don't want to pay for political contributions or organizing expenses.

 

Above is an explanation of how Beck works.

 

The union contends not paying fees is unfair to the 20,000 SPEEA members, especially because nonmembers file grievances and benefit from contract negotiations as much as those who pay dues.

 

Pretty common sentiment among union members. Especially if the dues are high, like in my case. Small union, hiring hall, very expensive to run.

 

Ken Mercer, a Boeing spokesman, said the company was disappointed that it had to enforce the contract and let the workers go.

 

Nor do unions like to have to enforce the language.

 

Illian, who is job hunting, said he never would have joined Boeing if union membership had been required. "They changed the rules on me without my permission," Illian said.

 

"They" is just a bunch of people. That's all a union is. Perhaps if Mr. Ilian had been more actively involved in the process, the outcome would have been different.

 

PS....just to clarify. This is perhaps arguable, but it's my opinion that agency requirements are not a real hot issue among union members. Hot issues are typically wages, working conditions, and health care. These days add outsourcing/subcontracting as a problem bigger than just Boeing.

Edited March 1, 2004 by marylou

[Rodchester]

Nope...just asking ML what she means. That's why I used the confused icon.

 

[Dru]

Here is a 1980's joke.... What is the only Union bigger than the Teamsters' Union?

 

The Soviet Union!

 

How many people even know what a Teamster is anyways? As i understand it the word originally referred to like a mule driver or something... the flunkies who cared for the animals on pack trains. Its kinda interesting that the name has thrived long after the original profession has become archaic.

[j_b]

there was a time and place for unions but now i truly question their values.

 

consider the following. note that it does not account for working conditions.

[Greg_W]

there was a time and place for unions but now i truly question their values.

 

consider the following. note that it does not account for working conditions.

 

Hence, we see why cars cost so much now, roadwork costs are skyrocketing, etc.

[j_b]

without unions all workers would make the minimum wage without benefits and noone could afford a car.

[Greg_W]

without unions all workers would make the minimum wage without benefits and noone could afford a car.

 

That may have been true, at one point in our history. I don't believe that would be the case today; that seems like a tenuous position to defend, j_b.

[Peter_Puget]

without unions all workers would make the minimum wage without benefits and noone could afford a car.

 

That is just silliness J_B. By The way what was the level of union employment back when Henry Ford first began his production line? Remember those illegal aliens hired by Walmart? Where they paid above or below minimum wage? As I said your comments are merely silliness.

 

However they are the kind of silliness that would tend to reduce us all to poverty.

[mr.radon]

Sorry Marylou you do nothing to refute the fact Unions use someone's livelihood to extort money from employees by holding their livelihoods at stake. Especially in the case of Boeing where for years they had no closed shop. No wonder the Mob finds Unions easy pray. You don’t have much farther to fall from grace when your organization threatens people with their livelihood.

You hide behind the fake fasad of “Oh they don’t have to join, but they have to pay and follow the collective bargaining agreement, and they can get fired if they don’t….blah, blah, blah” How many clubs ask you not to join but demand membership fees? Especially if I don’t want to belong to the club nor follow any of their silly rules. Not too many. I say if you pay a single cent to a union you're a member of the Union.

Personally if you ever work for a place and go on strike, the battle is already lost. You should have quit a long time before and found employment somewhere else. I think Boeing would be a better place to work if more engineers like me voted with their feet and not with the union. They all get to wear the big "L" for looser right next to the AFL-CIO lapel pin

[j_b]

That may have been true, at one point in our history. I don't believe that would be the case today

 

there is a chasm between what you believe and the real world. could a walmart worker buy a car? will any retail sector workers be able to buy a car in 10 years from now if the current trend continues?

[minx]

That may have been true, at one point in our history. I don't believe that would be the case today

 

there is a chasm between what you believe and the real world. could a walmart worker buy a car? will any retail sector workers be able to buy a car in 10 years from now if the current trend continues?

 

is owning a car a right? are they entitled to own a car? the retail sector may be the only one not shipping jobs over seas 10yrs from now. you never know...that might be the sector that is able to demand higher wages.

[j_b]

That may have been true, at one point in our history. I don't believe that would be the case today

 

there is a chasm between what you believe and the real world. could a walmart worker buy a car? will any retail sector workers be able to buy a car in 10 years from now if the current trend continues?

 

is owning a car a right? are they entitled to own a car? the retail sector may be the only one not shipping jobs over seas 10yrs from now. you never know...that might be the sector that is able to demand higher wages.

 

a car was just an example, replace it by health insurance if you prefer. as for the retail sector, this is the trend: "Health insurance and Wal-Mart are major themes in a strike by grocery workers in Southern California. The grocers want to reduce employee health benefits so the companies can compete with a coming wave of 40 Wal-Mart Supercenter stores in the state."

 

what is there to stop them from becoming more 'competitive' by reducing worker compensations? what's next, the 60hour week?

[marylou]

...and Mr. Radon presses on in this argument, stubbornly unwilling to be distracted by the facts.....