Stonehead Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Ran across this interesting article in New Yorker. Big and Bad some excerpts: The S.U.V. boom represents, then, a shift in how we conceive of safety--from active to passive. It's what happens when a larger number of drivers conclude, consciously or otherwise, that the extra thirty feet that the TrailBlazer takes to come to a stop don't really matter, that the tractor-trailer will hit them anyway, and that they are better off treating accidents as inevitable rather than avoidable. "The metric that people use is size," says Stephen Popiel, a vice-president of Millward Brown Goldfarb, in Toronto, one of the leading automotive market-research firms. "The bigger something is, the safer it is. In the consumer's mind, the basic equation is, If I were to take this vehicle and drive it into this brick wall, the more metal there is in front of me the better off I'll be." The truth, underneath all the rationalizations, seemed to be that S.U.V. buyers thought of big, heavy vehicles as safe: they found comfort in being surrounded by so much rubber and steel. To the engineers, of course, that didn't make any sense, either: if consumers really wanted something that was big and heavy and comforting, they ought to buy minivans, since minivans, with their unit-body construction, do much better in accidents than S.U.V.s. S.U.V.s are unsafe because they make their drivers feel safe. That feeling of safety isn't the solution; it's the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 it's all about the desire to have a big f'ing steed on which to ride and look down on all the peasants and say I have arrived. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glacier Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 I read the article a bit back - the thing that struck me was the discussion, after the test track, of 'active' vs. 'passive' safety. I have to agree with the author, and my drivers ed and MSF motorcycle course instructors, that being able to observe/plan/react is much more 'safe' than driving a block of steel that I can not easily maneuver in. I read another article some time ago discussing SUVs as a sort of highway arms race of bigger is better to assuage drivers' fears of accidents, etc. and thus, adding more to the mix. Add to this the total distraction of so many drivers - phone, food, screaming kids, overworked schedule, nasty commute with the rest of the proles - that drivers aren't paying attention to the road and hazards as they should. How many times have I blipped my throttle while motorcycle commuting to get out of the way of someone aimlessly merging into my space/lane? Anything less than an Escalade gets filtered out of their vision. Found yesterday: TNR further vilifies the damn things Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 I think that safety has always been a red-herring used to justify the decision to buy a tank for status purposes. There are more and more new style SUV-like cars coming out that are lighter, better designed and more suitable for urban driving. More and more people will buy these, especially if gas prices keep going up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_W Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 I drive a full size Chevy pickup and I KNOW I am much safer than in a smaller car. Being up higher, my field of vision is better; I can see further ahead at what is going on with cars in front of me. My truck is built on a frame, not some uni-body bullshit with "crumple zones". It's pretty maneuverable, as well. I've had to swerve on several occasions to avoid animals or other cars or debris and not had a problem. The most important this is to know your vehicle intimately and know what it can do. Trucks and SUV's are not Honda Accords; it's important to know the limitations of any vehicle you purchase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Sorry to burst your bubble Greg, but unibody with its crumple zones is much kinder to your body if you get into an accident than the frame construction of most pickups. There isn't a single pickup that has a good crash test rating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_W Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 (edited) Sorry to burst your bubble Greg, but unibody with its crumple zones is much kinder to your body if you get into an accident than the frame construction of most pickups. There isn't a single pickup that has a good crash test rating. Sorry, I'll take my truck any day. Thanks. I see that your post assumes that I don't know what crumple zones do and how they react. That means you awarded a beautiful crystal decanter of SHUT THE FUCK UP!!! Edited February 25, 2004 by Greg_W Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracked Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 And the point is proven..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_W Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 And the point is proven..... I was proving no point, only giving personal opinion/analysis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Silverado crash test results Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 I drive a pickup too. Who doesn't like being able to see over the car in front? The frame design carries loads better and makes repair less expensive, but the fact remains it isn't as safe. A 5 mph rear end collision to my Chevy could cause thousands of dollars worth of damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 I was proving no point, only giving personal opinion/analysis. Which was worth absolutely nothing. Framses != Superior Crash performance - if they did, the mid size GM SUV's wouldn't suck in crashes so bad, would they. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_W Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Boy, you guys are a trip. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I never said my opinion was worth anything to anyone except me. You don't agree with me? I don't really fucking care. In reading that analysis, it calls out a low risk of injury. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glacier Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 From the TNR column linked above: "People riding in pickups and SUVs are somewhat less likely to die in any given crash than people riding in regular cars, Gayer finds. But this statistic, on which defenses of the SUV as "safe" are based, does not take into account whether SUVs and pickup trucks are more likely than cars to get into crashes in the first place. Gayer studied the question of whether SUVs and pickup trucks crash more often than regular cars, and he adjusted for the fact that bad drivers may be drawn to buying SUVs and pickup trucks. Even adjusting for this, Gayer found, SUVs and pickup trucks crash far more often than regular cars. Analyzing state-by-state data, Gayer determined that SUVs and pickup trucks are 2.6-4 times more likely to crash than regular cars. Using "light trucks" to mean SUVs and pickup trucks employed for regular commuting rather than construction work, Gayer concludes that, "A world of light trucks leads to substantially more fatalities than a world of cars." " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Boy, you guys are a trip. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. Your just defending your unsound opinion based on your feelings. How liberal of you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 I'd be willing to bet that a drunk driver is 2.6-4 times as likely to drive a pickup truck than a car... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marylou Posted February 26, 2004 Share Posted February 26, 2004 It's all about how you drive anyway. Learn how to drive a fucking car and practice your alertness skills every time you put the key in the ignition. Long time motorcyclist here, just get frustrated with people's inability to properly use their vehicles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted February 26, 2004 Share Posted February 26, 2004 It's all about how you drive anyway. Learn how to drive a fucking car and practice your alertness skills every time you put the key in the ignition. Omigod...are you and gregw agreeing on something???????????????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arlen Posted February 26, 2004 Share Posted February 26, 2004 I drive a pickup too. Who doesn't like being able to see over the car in front? The frame design carries loads better and makes repair less expensive, but the fact remains it isn't as safe. A 5 mph rear end collision to my Chevy could cause thousands of dollars worth of damage. I think that's what the article said is unsafe: lots of vehicles that ordinary cars can't see through, over or around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marylou Posted February 26, 2004 Share Posted February 26, 2004 Omigod...are you and gregw agreeing on something???????????????? Yes, but ONLY on the matter of being a good driver. I think his "truck" argument is a load of crap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted February 26, 2004 Share Posted February 26, 2004 ahhh...but he did say to know the limitations of your vehicle and that you can't expect it to perform like an accord or other car... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glacier Posted February 26, 2004 Share Posted February 26, 2004 (edited) Rant on SUVs feeding the American culture of fear And regarding ABS and car "safety" Edited February 26, 2004 by glacier Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arlen Posted February 26, 2004 Share Posted February 26, 2004 I drive a full size Chevy pickup and I KNOW I am much safer than in a smaller car. Being up higher, my field of vision is better; I can see further ahead at what is going on with cars in front of me. My truck is built on a frame, not some uni-body bullshit with "crumple zones". It's pretty maneuverable, as well. I've had to swerve on several occasions to avoid animals or other cars or debris and not had a problem. The most important this is to know your vehicle intimately and know what it can do. Trucks and SUV's are not Honda Accords; it's important to know the limitations of any vehicle you purchase. and the limitations of your dumbassedness Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted February 26, 2004 Share Posted February 26, 2004 How did they get that video? Looks like the guy dozed off and rolled the car or at least went in to the ditch. "Hello, Mr. Smith. We'd like to make a video to make a point about seat belts. You don't use seatbelts, do you Mr. Smith?". "Huh, no. Am I supposed to?" "Mr. Smith, you don't have to change a thing about how you drive. Did we tell you that we give you a free 12-pack for agreeing to have the camera installed in your dash?" "Huh, really? When do I get the beer?" "Just as soon as the camera is installed". "Great, you're on!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arlen Posted February 26, 2004 Share Posted February 26, 2004 I think he was trying to surf on the hood of his truck. Shoulda used that alignment coupon first! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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