Asia: Environmental Timebomb

[RobBob]

You stoops riding yer bicycles around to save the environment ought to get to work where it really counts. The current situation in Asia, where lack of controls on almost any commerce threaten us all at the moment via, of all things, chickens, ought to be a wake-up call to you.

 

It is time to bring the Asian nations to heel. They collectively are key to where the environment is ultimately going, 1) through their population growth, and 2) through the 'anything goes' world of commerce that has been luring our own companies there for years.

 

We have squeezed the easiest 80% of air and water improvements out of ourselves during the past 30 years and regulated ourselves into a corner. The remaining 20% of improvements will cost us much more dearly. Yet you Kyotofarians want to give a pass to the nations producing the Asian brown cloud, and turn a blind eye on the real culprit of global pollution, which is population growth.

 

Why not deal with this thing before their cloud becomes ours? Give Asian nations zero, zilch, nada in terms of trade, access to US markets, etc., until they lay out and begin to effectively execute a strategy to 1) each bring their birth rate into line with the current birthrate of the citizens of the US and EU nations, and 2) agree to regulate their industries and citizens in terms of safety, emissions, etc. to the same absolute standard as the US and European countries.

 

You people want to try to keep me from driving my 4x4 SUV or be able to eat farmed salmon, and meanwhile our collective health may be threatened because no one is at the helm in Asia as millions of sick chickens threaten to infect a population of billions. Talk about lack of perspective.

[fern]

millions of sick chickens threaten to infect a population of billions.

 

won't this take care of the overpopulation problem?

[Dru]

I fully support your being able to eat farmed salmon if you want to, but are you sure you wouldn't have a heaping bowl of my feces? It is healthier and better for you than farmed salmon is

[RobBob]

I'll stick to farmed salmon, thank you. I'll make the same offer to you, Dru. I have some high-protein RobBob Meal that is low in ash and has a nice amino acid profile.

[willstrickland]

Not just Asia RB, there isn't much in the way of enviro regs in any developing nations. South America isn't much better than Asia. Mining reclamation is virtually non-existent in Peru, and the tailings are leaching into water supplies....nasty shit in those tailings, very high arsenic levels. Add the seismic factor and you can have millions of cubic yards of tailings essentially liquify and flow in a quake, right into the drainages and hence major waterbodies/supplies. I worked on a project to stabilize a silver mine tailings dam in the mountains outside Lima. Arsenic levels in the leechate was horrendous and the leechate flowed right into a tributary to a river which formed the water supply for Lima. The confluence was only about 2 miles from this site.

 

The crux is providing an impetus for foresight. It's hard to convince these people to put efforts (money, labor, resources) into enviro protections when they are barely getting by.

 

We may have covered the initial 80%, but we still contribute a huge portion of the global pollutant load, very far out of proportion with our global percent of the population.

 

I don't think discouraging SUVs is the answer, I think it's much broader in terms of planning. I currently live 3.5 miles from work. My commute takes less than 10 minutes. In Atlanta it's common to have an hour commute each way. Suburbs are designed around the car.

 

Pollution control equipment for large emitters such as coal-fired power generators is very expensive, but there are alot of simple things we could do lower our pollution load that are not expensive. Simple pollution controls on lawnmowers, snowmachines, etc could be inexpensive and have a noticable effect. Similarly, 4 stroke vs 2 stroke could make a difference. Gas mileage mandates could have an effect. Traffic devices and transportation planning can have a major impact. Staggering our workforce's work hours can help.

 

That last 20% you speak of is probably larger in terms of pollutant loading than most countries generate combined.

[erf]

poppycock!

 

check out the map for overall ecological impact per region

[Rodchester]

Maybe we can invade them in a preemptive strike to save the environment...obviously this is an imminent threat.

[Bug]

It is rumored that population control was on the agenda for Kyoto but was removed under pressure by those who accept guidance from the Pope. This was certainly the case for the global conference in Rio.

[RobBob]

It's hard to convince these people to put efforts (money, labor, resources) into enviro protections when they are barely getting by.

 

I agree with you on that, Will, but unfortunately we speedball them into polluting more by allowing ourselves (US and Euro companies) to exploit those same resources by abandoning home production and home rules...and by living this free trade mantra which may float the Asian boat but unfettered does not correct its lack of controls.

 

When the chicken fever hits, I'm takin' my kids out of school and hunkering down in the woods!

[catbirdseat]

When you read about the first reported case in the US, get your doc to write a prescription for Tamiflu. I'm serious.

[Billy]

RobBob-

The reason the Kyoto treaty is set up so we limit our pollution levels is that we have the power and the infrastructure to do so. The developing nations are just trying to survive. Have you ever been to Asia? Its a rough world out there.

 

Our Kyoto response and meeting attendants have largely been determined by large energy companies CEO's etc. Just look at the names of the people who are attending the meetings on behalf of the US and check their affiliations. And with Junior Bush in the Whitehouse, we are probably going to stay that way. I think its a shame. It comes down to making money. Bush's little buddies are going to make bank, if we don't agree to limit our emmisions. How much money do they really need, and to what extent are they willing to keep polluting in order to do so?

 

I would agree with you however on free trade agreements, in particular our MFN status with China. Until they really make a concerted effort in the human rights department, we should yank it.

[whirlwind]

china and inda are the only 2 countryies that have neg growth rate, the US has the highest waste and produces more CO2 than most the world, due to the fact that every american owns a car and our cars, unlike most foregin cars, get about 1/3 the gas milage on avg.

yup I'm all for fixing the problem over there but we need to fix ours first and lead by example, not by threat, don't foprget that asia produces alot of our goods at dirt cheap also so we would probly lose more than then they would if we stoped tradeing

[scott_harpell]

poppycock!

 

check out the map for overall ecological impact per region

 

Werd check out some of the other statistics tho.

[whirlwind]

thats funny china isn't even in the top 25 but the usa is # co2 #2 overall footprint and in the top ten for everything else..

btw imagine what the mad cow outbreak would have been like if we depened on beef for 50-70% of our protien

[scott_harpell]

poverty

[scott_harpell]

Taxation without representation for athiests!

[RobBob]

Asian brown cloud

 

from another source:

Quick facts

brown haze extends over South, Southeast and East Asia

haze is concentrated 3 kilometers above the surface and can travel halfway around the globe in less than a week

large surface cooling due to reduced sunlight perturbs the hydrological cycle

Brown haze composition

black carbon and ash

sulfates

nitrates

mineral dust

75% of the cloud is man-made

Cause

forest fires

inefficient cooking fuels

factories

motor vehicle use

Effects

significant reduction of solar radiation to the surface by as much as 15%

altered regional monsoon patterns (less sea evaporation from sunlight means less rain)

less rain in northwest India, Pakistan, Afganistan, and western PRC by as much as 40%

more rain and flooding in other areas

reduction of photosythesis (drop in agricultural productivity)

acid deposition and plant damage

respiratory ailments

 

You guys are fooling yourselves, lapsing back into defining pollution as CO2 emmissions and making it sound like India and China aren't egregious polluters.

 

China, India, Thailand, Taiwan, Indonesia, Vietnam, Cambodia, take your pick: They haven't eliminated that first 80% of the most noxious pollutants that are cheapest to fix. Saying that these societies are barely surviving and can't afford to change isn't accurate in all cases and in general is a cop-out. The corporations that provide employment could be held accountable to the same standards of pollution, safety, etc. as the rest of the world. A little education and pressure on governments could help convert people away from dung-fires, etc.

 

I'm sorry that wirlwind wouldn't have his cheap chinese merchandise in this scenario, but isn't this a small price to pay for really getting Asia to bring itself out of the 19th century and into the 21st? And why should jobs be trooping overseas essentially because those countries' work rules, payscales and expectations are so low?

[Titus_Canby]

Yo Bobby Robby-

Why don't you and the other right wingers go on over and do some education. Oh yeah, and check all through your house and see all the stuff you own that is made in China. Maybe you are part of the problem. Of course if your american material lifestyle dictates that you need these items, then you shouldn't whine about pollution in the 3rd world until you stop using it. My 2cents.