An insight into how Saddam is viewed in Iraq

[sexual_chocolate]

You know what I'm really tired of? Wooden chairs with cloth liners. Carpet cleaners also.

 

And what about those Mariners anyway?

[allthumbs]

and goddamn toilet paper pieces that stick to my whiskers and chest hair after I blow my nose

[sexual_chocolate]

you hairy-ass monkey.

 

Never again expose me to these disgusting personal data.

[sexual_chocolate]

the Native Americans have as good a cause to agitate for independence as the Kurds have had in Iraq!

 

Jesus Christ, SC, it's 100 years later. We've made most tribes rich with the gambling industry. At some point they are going to have to make the cultural decision to look toward the future instead of the past, deal with some of their demons, and go forth into the melting pot!

 

 

Don't play games here; address my point.

 

I simply state that Native Americans have as valid a claim to territory within the US as the Kurds do within Iraq. You seem to disagree.

 

Care to explain why?

[allthumbs]

fuck the injuns. they got their reservations and shit, and their wimmin are all professional bingo players and shit, and their casinos are keepin em afloat and shit. what more do they want? our white wimmin?

[sexual_chocolate]

please go remove that disgusting tissue-paper from your disgusting hairy-ass monkey body. Do not even talk to me until you have done this simple thing.

[Dru]

Your form of racism is really one of the most insidious:

 

"All ethnicities are really as equal and as worthy as me, as long as they conform to MY norms and MY values."

 

so if people of your own ethnicity aren't OK to you if they don't conform to your own norms and values....

 

that's not racism you are describing. it's bigotry. please be aware of and respect the difference!

[allthumbs]

... and as I slowly worked my finger down to her kootchie and playfully tweaked her G, there it was, that stray piece of toilet paper stuck to the side of her lip.

[Dru]

... and as I slowly worked my finger down to her kootchie and playfully tweaked her G, there it was, that stray piece of toilet paper stuck to the side of her lip.

 

sloppy wiper, probably got diseases

[JayB]

Your form of racism is really one of the most insidious:

 

"All ethnicities are really as equal and as worthy as me, as long as they conform to MY norms and MY values."

 

Very well put, SC.

 

I think the Iraquis might be feeling a little bit more gratitude in our general direction(s) if they had in any way ASKED us to liberate them from their tyrannical leader.

 

They didn't invite us. We INVADED their country and now we occupy it.

 

No one should be surprised that there is insurrection against an occupying force, no matter how (allegedly) high-minded the reason for the invasion and overthrow of the government.

 

 

"The big brother in a small hole

Horrraaaaa

It's the justice day.

I'm speechless.

I'm crying.

The tyrants' hour has finally came. I went down to the streets to share the joy with my brothers. This is our day, the day of all the oppressed and good people on earth.

Tears of joy filled the eyes of all the people.

Saddam, the coward, hides in a hole, shaking in fear from being captured.

Not a single bullet was fired, without any resistance, God, he was even cooperative! The mighty tyrant, who exploited all our country's fortune for his personal protection, surrenders like the cowered I expected him to be.

Yes, he should be prosecuted in Iraq. We will not allow anything else.

We want to see him in a cage bending more and more, humiliated more and more, just as he forced all the Iraqis to bend to him, like they were his slaves. But we will not be like him, we will give him a fair trail, and he will get just what he deserves, although I have no idea what does he really deserve.

It's indeed an inauspicious day for all the tyrants. Let them know that their days are near too.

This is the day of all Iraqi martyrs who were slaughtered just to please his sick lust for blood.

Rest in peace my brothers. The paradise is yours and the disgrace and hell is for all the tyrants on earth.

Thank you American, British, Spanish, Italian, Australian, Ukrainian, Japanese and all the coalition people and all the good people on earth.

God bless the 1st brigade.

God bless the 4th infantry division.

God bless Iraq.

God bless America.

God bless the coalition people and soldiers.

God bless all the freedom loving people on earth.

I wish I could hug you all."

 

Source - Iraqi Weblogs

 

I'd say the feelings of resentment are hardly unanimous, even amongst the Sunni, who amount to roughly 1/3rd of the population. Take a moment and read through this weblog and those linked to his site when you get a chance.

[Fairweather]

SC,

 

"Native Americans"?? Hmm. I'd better go back and review my anthropology textbooks.

[Peter_Puget]

Here's a way to ethnic harmony: We're all one!

 

PP

[RobBob]

SC: Back to the subject at hand.

 

SC said: the Native Americans have as good a cause to agitate for independence as the Kurds have had in Iraq!

 

Your outrageous troll suggests that people must atone for things that were not directly caused by them and even happened happened before their birth, as opposed to holding Saddam accountable for his direct responsibility for gassing the Kurds.

 

You waited with baited breath to see if someone would disagree, then, as is your MO, you used your antiestablishment prism to quickly interpret their answer as racism.

 

"One of the sad signs of our times is that we have demonised those who produce, subsidised those who refuse to produce, and canonized those who complain." - Thomas Sowell

 

My point was and is that I believe the US doesn't owe any cultural group a damn thing for anything that happened in prior generations. That notion only serves to divide & de-motivate those who would supposedly be the beneficiaries.

 

I would have to say that your form of racism is most insidious: making race a constant issue, and calling those who disagree with you racists. That at its core is just name-calling, and a kind of pitiful attempt to feel self-rightious on your part. In doing so you fail to address my point: That there is a path to getting on with success. It doesn't include reparations and entitlements from past eras.

 

A basic sense of unfairness can either be an excuse to stay where you are, or a powerful motivator to achieve in your life. The keys to achievement are fairly universal, but you have to latch onto them to get there.

[Mtguide]

the Native Americans have as good a cause to agitate for independence as the Kurds have had in Iraq!

 

Jesus Christ, SC, it's 100 years later. We've made most tribes rich with the gambling industry. At some point they are going to have to make the cultural decision to look toward the future instead of the past, deal with some of their demons, and go forth into the melting pot!

 

Poverty and attendant social problems still lay a heavy hand on many,many tribes in the country;we just had quite a powerful(and excellent) series of articles in The Oregonian, on child mortality on the Warm Springs Reservation in Central Oregon.The tribes who've done well with casinos have been those with proximity to urban or resort areas providing ready gaming clientele.The vast majority of reservations are way out in hardscrabble backwater areas bereft of marketable resources,or if the resources are there, the BIA and corporate interests have "leased"(read,"appropriated") them.Mineral,timber,grazing and water rights on reservations tend to be a hugely confused mess,with the lion's share of profits going to white/corporate interests.There are indeed some tribes who've managed to get control of their resources and become relativly stable and self-supporting,but even the larger and wealthier tribes such as Navajo,So.Calif.Chemehuevi(who own the land on which Palm Springs sits)Oklahoma's Kiowa-Comanche and so.Cheyenne(oil and gas),to name just a few, have a greatly disproportionate rate of poverty,alchohol and drug abuse,infant and child mortality,mental illnes, diseases such as tuberculosis,and accidents,compared to the general populace.

 

I completely agree that all tribes have to come to terms with the past and move on,whining will get you nowhere.And many are in the process of doing just that.But they have big,big problems,and a very long way to go.

 

"Never judge another man until you have walked a mile in his moccasins."

-Cheyenne

 

"The old men say,

the earth,only,

endures.

 

They spoke truly;

They were right."

 

-Sioux

 

Edited December 19, 2003 by Mtguide

[catbirdseat]

Poverty is defined by the dominant consumer culture in this country. Before the whiteman came to North America, the natives probably didn't consider themselves as a whole to be "impoverished". And yet, but our standards they were.

 

Any attempt to subsist by a hunter gatherer lifestyle will be labeled impoverished. The reservations were created to allow native americans to continue to live as their ancestors had done, except that they were given poor quality lands, in general.

 

Today most native Americans no longer wish to live a subsistence livestyle. They want to continue to live on their reservation, AND enjoy the same prosperity as non-tribal citizens. They want a nice house, two cars in the garage, the DVD and all the modern accouterments.

 

The reservations that happen to abut urban areas have been the ones that have been able to best take advantage of gaming. I am sure they would like to be less dependent on a single source of income, but because the reservations are subject to tribal law it has been difficult to attract the capital needed to provide jobs. Uncertainty is bad for investment. It seems the tribes are getting smarter and tightening up their laws and trying to make them more consistent with the state and Federal laws.

[sexual_chocolate]

Good morning robbob.

 

I suppose that I may have been a bit careless as I began to sling accusations of racism at you during our argument yesterday; for this I'll apologize. While I don't agree with the overall tone or philosophies espoused by your arguments, and perhaps even consider them to be racist, I haven't spent enough time in your presence to come to any conclusion beyond a quasi-specious suspicion based on the racist views you hold.

 

 

Your outrageous troll suggests that people must atone for things that were not directly caused by them and even happened happened before their birth, as opposed to holding Saddam accountable for his direct responsibility for gassing the Kurds.

 

I believe the gassing of the Kurds was an atrocity beyond the comprehension of most of our personal emotional frameworks; I think it is for this reason it has made such a powerful propaganda tool for the current (and previous) administration.

 

The inherent problem with the current administration's use of this atrocity as a propaganda tool is the fact that individuals involved in this administration were directly in the know at the time of the slaughters and did nothing to stop them. As a matter of fact, the UN made an attempt to condemn Hussein's actions, yet the US stepped in to protect what was at that point (mid to late '80's) an important asset, and over-rode the UN efforts.

 

But to directly address your point:

 

If you go back and read my question, it was very pointed and direct: Why do you think the Kurds have more of a valid land-claim argument than the Original People here on North America (Turtle Island)?

 

 

You waited with baited breath to see if someone would disagree, then, as is your MO, you used your antiestablishment prism to quickly interpret their answer as racism.

 

One doesn't need an "antiestablishment prism" to sniff out racism! Common sense will do.

 

"One of the sad signs of our times is that we have demonised those who produce, subsidised those who refuse to produce, and canonized those who complain." - Thomas Sowell

 

Why is it that you always quote some damn capitalist propaganda spewer (sewer) who supports your adopted views, reducing all matters social, cultural, and political to capitalist tenets of production value?

You're as bad as the Communists!

 

My point was and is that I believe the US doesn't owe any cultural group a damn thing for anything that happened in prior generations. That notion only serves to divide & de-motivate those who would supposedly be the beneficiaries.

 

At what time-value do you draw the line? The Kurds were gassed in the mid- to late-eighties, so a new generation of non-Kurds has cropped up on contested soil. Hmmm....this gets complicated! It wouldn't be fair to dislocate these people who had nothing to do with the gassing....And since, as you claim, it was Saddam personally who was to blame for all this, it should be he who atones for these crimes. How? Monetarily? In the form of land re-appropriation? Whose land and whose money? We can't use Iraqi money since that would be a form of collective punishment (your argument against reparations?), and again we can't repatriate, since innocents would be affected. Hmmm....

 

And again, since you still haven't answered:

 

How do the Kurds have a better land-claim issue than the Original People here?

 

 

 

I would have to say that your form of racism is most insidious: making race a constant issue, and calling those who disagree with you racists. That at its core is just name-calling, and a kind of pitiful attempt to feel self-rightious on your part. In doing so you fail to address my point: That there is a path to getting on with success. It doesn't include reparations and entitlements from past eras.

 

Tell me where I brought race into it. I believe this whole to-do started when you disagreed with my stance that the Original People here have as valid a land-claim as do the Kurds in Iraq. Oh, which reminds me:

 

How do the Kurds have a better land-claim issue than the Original People here?

 

You used the word "success". This word can be defined in many ways, although your penchant for its use is firmly entrenched in its capitalist connotations. Mine isn't.

 

 

 

 

A basic sense of unfairness can either be an excuse to stay where you are, or a powerful motivator to achieve in your life. The keys to achievement are fairly universal, but you have to latch onto them to get there.

 

I would think that the "keys to achievement" are not necessarily universal, since the notion of "achievement" itself is very much a cultural/social construct. Do you really think I personally would want to be a prisoner of your "success constructs"? Highly doubtful, after seeing what they consist of. In the same vein, I would suggest it to be highly immoral for you to so consistently impose your rigid world-views as universally inescapable truths, when all they consist of really are unconsciously adopted puritan/capitalist value-systems, protected now in the most emotive manner.

 

 

Oh, and one more thing:

 

Why do you think the Kurds have more of a valid land-claim argument than the Original People here on North America (Turtle Island)?

[RobBob]

Okay, SC, I can see that you are intrigued and that perhaps you'd had too much coffee. Your lines run from the specious to the ridiculous:

 

I suppose that I may have been a bit careless as I began to sling accusations of racism at you during our argument yesterday; for this I'll apologize. While I don't agree with the overall tone or philosophies espoused by your arguments, and perhaps even consider them to be racist, I haven't spent enough time in your presence to come to any conclusion beyond a quasi-specious suspicion based on the racist views you hold.

 

Isn't this like saying "I apologise for calling you a wife-beater, since I've never met you or your wife, and have no idea who you are, but I just have this gut feeling from the tone of your posts that your violent nature is causing you to beat your wife more often now." ??

 

Tell me where I brought race into it.

 

Right here:

 

Thanks, RobBob, for the insightful clarification! (Now what shall we do about those pesky black people?)

 

[sexual_chocolate]

Okay, SC, I can see that you are intrigued and that perhaps you'd had too much coffee. Your lines run from the specious to the ridiculous:

 

I suppose that I may have been a bit careless as I began to sling accusations of racism at you during our argument yesterday; for this I'll apologize. While I don't agree with the overall tone or philosophies espoused by your arguments, and perhaps even consider them to be racist, I haven't spent enough time in your presence to come to any conclusion beyond a quasi-specious suspicion based on the racist views you hold.

 

Isn't this like saying "I apologise for calling you a wife-beater, since I've never met you or your wife, and have no idea who you are, but I just have this gut feeling from the tone of your posts that your violent nature is causing you to beat your wife more often now." ??

 

Brilliant! You are more astute than I initially gave you credit for!

 

 

 

Tell me where I brought race into it.

 

Right here:

 

Thanks, RobBob, for the insightful clarification! (Now what shall we do about those pesky black people?)

 

 

I would suggest that you brought "race" into it earlier, with your exasperation at my suggestion that a particular ethnic group had suffered, and perhaps had legitimate land claim issues.

 

 

But, one more time:

 

Do Turtle Islanders have as legitimate a land claim as do the Kurds?

 

I await your answer....

[jon]

[jon]

And in case you guys haven't seen the show, that's Trask on the far left.

[RobBob]

Do Turtle Islanders have as legitimate a land claim as do the Kurds?

 

I await your answer....

 

Neither has a land claim. I never made any assertion that the Kurds had a land claim. I stated that holding Saddam accountable for gassing the Kurds is not the same as holding me (or you) accountable for Indian (or any other)reparations from past generations.

 

If you want to talk about land claims, let's discuss how the Cuban exiles have, through Republicans like Jesse Helms and the Bush boys, effectively prolonged Castro's communist regime and held Cubans back from joining the rest of the free world. I believe that the sense of entitlement on the part of the wealthy Cuban exiles has a lot to do with this.

[allthumbs]

And in case you guys haven't seen the show, that's Trask on the far left.

and that's jon, second from the right, offering saddam his personal electro-pussy.

[sexual_chocolate]

Neither has a land claim. I never made any assertion that the Kurds had a land claim.

 

Interesting. But it was the Kurdish insistence on autonomy that led to the conflict, culminating in the use of gas by Saddam to quell the uprising.

 

It would seem to me then that you would be a supporter of Saddam's intentions to quell an illegitimate land-claim, opposing only the methods used?

[RobBob]

Sorry, but the Christmas shopping calls...I look forward to playing your little game of gotcha again later, SC. Can someone please take over for me?

RB

[sexual_chocolate]

Robbob, i'm not playing a game of "gotcha" here, just pointing out the ramifications of the views you hold!

 

I'll leave sophistry to to the greeks and politicians; I much prefer using logical deconstruction and common sense to guide my arguments.

 

By the way, happy christmas shopping, and happy holidays too!