Home Climbing Wall Liability

[miker]

OK, here is the question. I am buying a house and am planning on building a climbing wall. Now if I have someone over and we are climbing and they break their leg, head, coxcyx, et al what is my exposure to liability? Should I have everyone sign a waiver? I ask this because I am looking at homeowners insurance and they have some level of liability and amount they will pay for a friend who hurts himself on my roof or whatever. Any lawyer types out there or just someone who watched a lot of LA Law or runs a climbing gym and knows something about this? I kinda like the idea of a waiver although I don't know if it would really stand up in court as it is not a business but my own home....

On a related note, what is the best way to use half of my 2 car garage for the climbing wall? It looks like 10x20 and 7 or 8 feet tall right now, I might raise the attic a bit to give me more upward mobility.

miker

[MysticNacho]

If they break a leg or something, don't mess around with liability, that gets too messy. Just kill them.

[Figger_Eight]

Don't let your friends climb on it that would sue you for falling off your wall.

[Marcus_Engley]

quote:

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Originally posted by miker:

Now if I have someone over and we are climbing and they break their leg, head, coxcyx, et al what is my exposure to liability?

I kinda like the idea of a waiver although I don't know if it would really stand up in court as it is not a business but my own home....

On a related note, what is the best way to use half of my 2 car garage for the climbing wall? It looks like 10x20 and 7 or 8 feet tall right now, I might raise the attic a bit to give me more upward mobility.

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Well, the first thing I'd do is, as Figger Eight says, don't invite people who would sue you if they hurt themselves in your garage-- I can't imagine any of my friends doing that. Second, I'd say go to Value Village and pick up a bunch of junk mattresses. I've got five, and I paid about $15 for them-- reduce head-thumpage and coccyx-breakage.

But that's not your question: A waiver would certainly indicate that your friend understood the chance of injury, whether or not it would hold up in court. That said, I think my friends would all look at me funny, and I wouldn't have many people to climb with if I busted out the waiver when they dropped by with a six-pack and their shoes.

A better solution might be some kind of posted notice indicating the danger of climbing, blah blah blah. You could make it just serious enough that it covered your ass a little (in the unlikely event of someone actually going after you in court), and it would be something you and all your climbing buddies could laugh at a little-- kind of like your own mini- REI Pinnacle. Better than a waiver at least, in my mind.

Oh, what I wouldn't give for a two car garage! If you're intent on using only half of it, here are some thoughts: My garage is about 12' by 20', with a roof peak at about 9 or 10'. It's got 16' of vertical panelling along one wall that butts into a 45/20 degree wall that covers the 12' width (6' for each, w/ a little transition panel between). On the other side is a 6' wide vertical section, then an 8' wide section that overhangs about 10 degrees. All of these are about 7.5 to 8' tall. Off the top of the 45/20 there's a roof that comes out to the peak at about 60 degrees, adding a little spice. It's much fun.

If you've got the means and time to raise your garage ceiling and give more "up", I'd definitely do it. That's the only thing our wall lacks, I think...

m

[miker]

Thanks all, those were all pretty much my thoughts and yes the comp liability does cover this. As for a good sign to hang up, I will have to think on that, maybe something like...

"If you are stupid enough to get killed because you were doing something you shouldn't oughta have been doing the management takes no responsibility for putting ou back together and might even charge you for bloodstains."

maybe a little rough

how about.

"Climbing kills, get out!!" Again not people friendly.

"Be Careful the world is a dangerous place and you might get a booboo..."

Also the mattresses idea is the way to go, I was actually thinking about futon matresses maybe as those are easy to find and they are IKEAriffic.

What is the best disclaimer anyone has seen?

miker

[CleeshterFeeshter]

Miker,

here are some liability thoughts on a home climbing wall:

-most Homeowner's type policies carry a Comprehensive Family Liability (CFL) limit of either $100K or $300K that would cover you for incorrect design,incorrect belaying, stupidity,hold breaking etc for someone else's injury or death.

- Having someone sign a waiver does not protect you against negligence caused by you- courts have generally held that waivers of liability are contrary to public policy ( that goes for RMI and the other guide services)

- essentially, as long as you have some sort of CFL,Umbrella, or CGL type of policy- I would not worry at all. In fact, just the opposite, I would encourage my climbing buddies to break their ass at my house so that they could score a good settlement off my homeowners policy.

[Paul_detrick]

No wonder rates are so high.

[Bug]

Friends who try to sue me have poor taste.

[offwidthclimber]

wow, that's kinda fucked up. i've never even thought about a buddy suing me over getting injured on my wall. i guess that's because my buddies are generally not scum sucking assholes.

and if someone did, i'd make sure they went to the hospital for more than just climbing injuries

and agree with the previous post - a 20 degree and 45 degree overhang is a good setup. i just have 45 degrees overhanging and vertical section right now, but plan to hook up a 20 degree overhanging wall at some point.

futon mattresses = good!

[lizard_brain]

If you're really concerned, spend a couple of bucks and ask a lawyer about this and have them write the waiver for you. I'm sure they could give you more reliable legal advice than us anonymous posters on this site. As someone said to me on another topic - "This advice is worth what you paid for it...".

[CleeshterFeeshter]

OK Lizard Brain- here is the definitive answer on Liability waivers

Vodopest v MacGregor, 128 Wn. 2d 840 (1996)- A Release (liability waiver) signed by a personal injury plaintiff prior to the injury is not always valid. This case was heard in the Washington State Supreme and quite wildly involved a waiver for someone on a climbing trek to Mt Everest.

After arriving on Nepal, Vodopest began to suffer from AMS and developed cerebral edema resulting in permanent brain damage. Although Vodopest is based on unusual facts, it is an example of the State Court's willingness to ignore a clearly worded release to afford an injured person a potential recovery.

Now you may ask "Cleeshter, why do they even have these waivers ?( RMI, AAI, MM, High School Football). The waivers are incredible psychological weapons against a participant from filing a claim/suit. It warns the participant that the activity may be dangerous and the risks involved beforehand and discourages a claim.

[lizard_brain]

quote:

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Originally posted by CleeshterFeeshter:

The waivers are incredible psychological weapons against a participant from filing a claim/suit. It warns the participant that the activity may be dangerous and the risks involved beforehand and discourages a claim.

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Ah. That explains why when I recently signed a couple of waivers, the person behind the desk said that they aren't really "valid".

[Matt_Anderson]

So I don't have the time to thoroughly research the issue, and because of that, I won't give advice, because I could be wrong and then you'd sue me for malpractice, but . . .

A whole bunch of the things bandied about in people's attempts to answer your question are just plain wrong.

If you want to be protected from someone suing you, pay a lawyer to give you an answer he'll stand behind. He could draw up an appropriate release and explain its limitations.

matt