Sponsor A Bolt

[fern]

 

I don't know whether to or

 

"New Route Fund"

 

 

[Thinker]

Is this related to the fund Murray helps coordinate?

[fern]

no these are private individuals putting up sport routes.

 

Murray's fund pays for replacement of existing bad bolts and also more importantly Murray's Valhalla Pure 'bolt' fund pays for the toilets in the Smoke Bluffs parking lot.

[jordop]

LOOK OUT! They got a bulletin board too! http://meingh.proboards7.com/index.cgi?board=general

[mattp]

Those guys may be a little self-indulgent if they expect unknown climbers to support their drilling activities, but putting up or maintaining bolt-intensive routes is very expensive. If you use what I consider to be decent hardware for the belay stations, whether a pair of hangers with chains attached to them with screw links, or pre-made belay stations from Fixe, it costs $12.00-15.00 for a belay station. For pro, I like powder-coated bolt hangers, and each stainless steel bolt with hanger costs over $3.00.

 

A few years ago somebody suggested putting a "donations" jar in Jim Nelson's shop when Dave Whitelaw and I put up an 8 pitch route and started replacing old bolts on many of the classic older routes in Darrington. We were pleased that somebody thought well enough of what we were doing to suggest that and over the next few months we collected a couple hundred dollars. I don't expect other people to pay for my new route, but I have probably spent over 25 days and at least a couple hundred dollars doing road and trail work on existing roads and trails and replacing pre-existing hardware that was installed by somebody, 25 years ago, who isn't coming back to maintain their climb. I have also been given a lot of bolt hangers strictly for this maintenance work, and for that I am grateful.

 

If somebody set out to replace all those chain-link hangers at Little Si, I bet there would be lots of folks willing to donate. I bet that, withoiut some kind of sponsorship (donations), nobody will ever set out to improve things there.

[Peter_Puget]

Matt -

 

Several times I have suggested to people that the WMA would be happy to donated equipment and as of yet all have declined. Rudy I think you are the man! 1/2" stainless waiting for you!

 

PP

[Dwayner]

I took a little look at that web-site:

 

Here's my immediate response:

 

[fern]

You have hit on exactly what struck me matt, the

self-indulgence. This "Meingh.com New Bolt Fund" is not a

maintenance or bolt-replacement fund. Essentially they

appear to be asking to be sponsored to put up new sport

climbs.

 

I have read the figure of $50(CDN) to properly kit a

typical 25m sport route. The cost to some extent forces

people establishing new routes to be more thoughtful about

how many bolts they will put in. Whether sport or non-sport

you can usually tell when a first-ascentionist has put some

thought into how they have developed the route and usually

the well planned routes provide a better climbing experience.

(speaking of local routes in particular that require lots of

scrubbing and pruning in addition to possibly fixing hardware).

 

I looked around to see if they had any names of this

"...group of individuals responsible for a good portion

of the new route development in Squamish." and found nothing.

So to me it reads no different than the guy on the side of the

highway with the "Need money or job" cardboard sign. There's

no background credibility to the request and I am stunned

and amused by the egotism of it.

 

 

[mattp]

Fern,

I am not arguing with you, but I'm kind of interested in what would give the guy "background credibility." Like you (I'm only guessing what you think), I found some smug amusement in thinking that the guy must be rather egocentric to think that people are going to pay him to put up sport routes. Also like you (again I'm only guessing), I would be surprised if he got much in donations from this solicitation -- but then again people get lots of money from all kinds of idiotic inernet scams that are probably far less trustworthy than his solicitation. But what of this "credibility?" Would if affect your judgment if he had a link with Kevin McLane or Scott Flavelle -- and why? What if this "lost crag" or whatever it is turns out to be lauded as the best sport crag in BC? In reflecting on my own experience, I wonder why our money jar in Jim Nelson's shop was all that different. Yes, Dave had been an author of a Washington climbing guidebook, but his name was not on the jar. Was it different because the jar was on the counter in a shop operated by someone who had credibility as a guidebook author himself? Or were we just being egocentric idiots to think that someone might want to donate to what we saw as a worthy project? Was it crucial that we were not only putting up new routes but also maintaining old ones?

[russ]

mattp said:

In reflecting on my own experience, I wonder why our money jar in Jim Nelson's shop was all that different. Yes, Dave had been an author of a Washington climbing guidebook, but his name was not on the jar. Was it different because the jar was on the counter in a shop operated by someone who had credibility as a guidebook author himself? Or were we just being egocentric idiots to think that someone might want to donate to what we saw as a worthy project? Was it crucial that we were not only putting up new routes but also maintaining old ones?

 

I threw a couple of chunks in that jar. Why - cause I like Darrington climbing and since it was in Jim's shop I assumed it was credible. I doubt I even thought about who was doing the bolting, but thanks.

[mattp]

Russ-

Thanks for your support. If I had a "send money here" plea on my Darrington Rock Climbing web page, would you send me money? Should I quit my day job?

 

I guess one thing I'm wondering is this: Darrington was neglected for a long time, and the area was known for sketchy bolts and long runouts and bad trails. The replacement of old bolts, in particular, happened largely because of the support and encouragement from that money jar and the donations from the Washington Mountain Alliance. We felt (or at least I did - Dave can speak for himself) that we had some kind of broader responsibility when we were using other people's money and, while I was already starting to replace old bolts up there, I did more of it after we got that kind of support.

 

Might the internet be a tool for somebody to use for funding the replacement of bolts or the restoration of eroding trails at other climbing areas? If so, how should they go about it?

[russ]

Whether you get donations through a personal website is probably strongly related to how well known you are in the local climbing community, and how well you are identified with the climbing area in question.

 

Back in the 80's I used to climb at Darrington pretty frequently. In the 90's it was limited to a couple of runs up Dreamer. But talk of new routes and a new guide have rekindled my interest in the area. Your website has become identified as the source for info on Darrington (along with cc.com), so it probably fullfils both of those criteria. But for most people to donate money for something like this, it has to be easy and convenient. Dropping bills in the jar at PMS is easy - setting down and writing out a check to someone from a website is probably more than most are willing to do. Afterall, climbers are notoriously lazy on most things, except climbing.

 

I don't know what it takes to set up a PayPal account, but that could be one avenue of soliciting funds on the web. I think if you state clearly what the funds will be used for you stand a chance of local support. Also, if you might try getting a few statement of support from some of the local well known climbers. Anything to lend credibility could be helpful.

 

btw, don't quit the day job just yet!

[Cpt.Caveman]

replace the alpine bolts.

 

The ones that need it. Now that's a touchy subject.

[mattp]

Russ-

I do not mean to seriously suggest I am going to start soliciting donations. Darrington is a cool area, and I've had fun up there over the years, but its a hobby interest and I'm not planning on taking any more formal step toward trying to be Mr. Darrington. I'm wondering, though, whether somebody who wanted to adopt a climbing area might well use the web in a manner similar to Meingh.com without being seen as self-serving and silly.

[lummox]

then again maybe not.

[lummox]

http://www.beerforthehomeless.com/

[fern]

To me the most fundamental level of credibility comes from being up front about your name, rather than anonymous.

 

I am not implying any generalities about who should pay for bolts. The site specifically lists sport crags in Cheakamus canyon and indicates it concerns new sport routes. I don't see the connection to re-fitting remote multipitches in Darrington.

 

I don't know about WA but in Vancouver and Squamish there are well established bolt funds that have sponsored re-fitting of bad bolts, the credibility of these funds comes from their association with the businesses and organizations that collect the money, MEC, Valhalla Pure, Climbers Access Society etc. I have heard of one person, who has done lots of re-bolting in addition to new routes, who was denied bolts from the fund because it was suspected that he was using them to put up new routes rather than re-fit pre-existing ones. The distinction between new sport routes and pre-existing routes with bad bolts is pretty clear I think?

 

I have never heard of people soliciting funding for their new route activity before, so it caught my interest and I thought maybe some people on this board might have some funny or thoughtful rants about the topic, but obviously from the number of responses it is the big So What? ... so what.

 

 

[Sphinx]

Dwayner sez: Every bolt should be inspected and approved by me. Shalom!

[vegetablebelay]

From the site:

 

Current Requirements

We are currently taking donations to support the over 110 bolts that have gone into the Forgotten Wall at Chek. In addition we are hoping to fix biners at the top of all the route so that no cleaning is required.

 

 

Seems like the first few hundred dollars in donations will go into their pockets.

[mattp]

Yes, Fern, I think many people agree that it is more acceptable for someone to solicit donations when they are maintaining older routes than it would be for them to do so when putting up new lines. But I think Meingh's site raises other questions. To refer back once again to a local Seattle example, I'll ask this: what if Brian Burdo, when he installed all those chain links stacked on washers for bolt hangers at Little Si, had instead taken donations and thereby been able to afford real hangers? Wouldn't that have been better? People who think Little Si is a travesty may argue no - that it would only have encouraged him to install more bolts - but I am not so sure whether there would have been more or if those installed would simply have been better. Similarly, as Veggie points out, the plea at Meingh.com suggests that any significant donations might be taken as an endorsement of activities that a significant number of climbers do not approve of -- aside from the underlying question as to whether sport climbing is legitmate at all, what else do we think about this? Would it be better to try to undermine Mr. Meingh or, perhaps, is it a good idea to praise at least the fact that it appears he may be trying to do a good job of it? Is the fact that he set up his site, and a bulletin board for discussion, a sign that he may be likely to be more responsible about what he is doing than somebody who seeks to avoid bringing attention to what they are doing?

[russ]

mattp said:

Russ-

I do not mean to seriously suggest I am going to start soliciting donations. Darrington is a cool area, and I've had fun up there over the years, but its a hobby interest and I'm not planning on taking any more formal step toward trying to be Mr. Darrington. I'm wondering, though, whether somebody who wanted to adopt a climbing area might well use the web in a manner similar to Meingh.com without being seen as self-serving and silly.

 

I thought you might be joking, but I don't really think it's much of a stretch to ask for donations. Especially if your handling the money, then giving it out to the people actively replacing bolts. Doing it anonomously like Meingh.com probably won't be seeing much action - at least not from me, because it's not my home area and I don't know the people involved.

 

Bryan did have a jar up for while in the Redmond Vertical World. I don't have any problem helping him out, because I think Bryan is good for the Seattle climbing community. Doesn't matter that many of his route are too hard for me.