More North Cascades trivia

[Lowell_Skoog]

Harry Majors writes:

 

I myself do not climb. But what I do represent is a direct link between the climbers of today and the climbers of the past. Right now, Fred and I are really the only living major direct links with the past. When we both are gone, this link between the present and the past will be entirely severed.

 

A couple years ago, as I was beginning my ski mountaineering research, I sent Fred Beckey an email telling him about my project and asking him for leads. He responded that he had "done nothing worth reporting on skis" and suggested that I "try old timers - they might know." I got a good chuckle out of this because I thought to myself, who is more of an old timer than Fred?

 

Later it became clear that Fred was thinking of Wolf Bauer. I've since interviewed Wolf, who is 90 or 91 today. So yes, to Fred, Wolf Bauer is an old timer. Earlier in this thread, Harry described how Wolf placed the first piton in the North Cascades on Mt Goode in 1936. Wolf also founded the Mountaineers climbing course in 1935, which Harry rightly called "the single most influential event in the history of Cascades Mountaineering." Wolf was a mentor to the Ptarmigans while they were still Boy Scouts and was one of the co-founders of the Mountain Rescue Council in 1948. He introduced kayaking to the Northwest and founded the Washington Kayak club. He skied in the first slalom race west of the Mississippi in 1930 and took 5th in the first Silver Skis Race in 1934. Most Northwest climbers probably don't even realize that Wolf is still around, still sharp and still active. He's a bona fide living legend.

 

Harry Majors and Fred Beckey are active historians, still researching and writing, so in a sense Harry is correct that he and Fred are the only living major direct links with the past. Wolf Bauer isn't writing a book (though his friends have urged him to do so) so it falls to others to preserve those links. I'm glad that Fred and Harry have stepped up to the task, and I wish them Godspeed in their efforts.

 

Harry - I understand why you might want to refrain from any more comments about Fred or CAG on cc.com. It's no fun having people mad at you. But I don't think your postings have been disrespectful and I, for one, enjoy your insights. My experience on the Internet, which goes back to the 1980s, before there was a World-Wide Web, has taught me that stirring up a little controversy can be a positive thing, if you embark upon it respectfully. You get a chance to test drive your ideas with an outspoken audience and refine your arguments. I think this can be a valuable process for a researcher and writer.

 

I appreciate your devotion to getting the facts straight and making sure that sources are properly acknowledged. I found your comments on the CAG-2 errata/addenda thread about Fred's preface and its similarities to "Exploring Washington" interesting:

 

http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/threadz/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=UBB2&Number=224218&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&vc=1

 

If Fred relied on that book without properly acknowledging it, that should be corrected. My interest in this was merely academic until I checked the U.W. Library Catalog and found that "Exploring Washington" was written by one Harry M. Majors in 1975, two years before the first edition of CAG-2 appeared. Now I've added the book to my reading list and must apologize for not looking it up sooner.

 

[Beck]

It is difficult to follow such an erudite post, Lowell. My reply pales in comparision.

 

 

Contributions to Northwest climbing by Beckey is obvious. look at the CAGs.

 

these "Beckey Bibles" , like the actual good book, should be taken with a grain of salt. Fred is a brillant artist and writer, taking a sketchbook approach to the Cascades. He's got information about pretty much every peak. what an invaluable resource for those of us to follow. most other areas the expanse of the cascades need about twenty guidebooks, and then there still isn't a complete picture. I like the fact I can look at a map of WA and some southern BC, then go to the Beckey bibles, and find a route up something. Pretty much guaranteed.

 

In the field, guidebooks are meant to be that, merely 'guides.' do you hear of many people dissing Fodor's or Lonely Planet guides because " that bus line wasn't reported accurately" or this type of dissent?

 

If you look at a book like 'high adventure' by B and I Spring, published in 1951, has a few crags featured, and wrong names on things. and a reference to young 'Louis Whittaker' and 'crag rats' and a feature called 'the chisel' which i can't find in the guidebooks...

 

 

And as to the fellows around the NW that contributed to skiing and climbing history, it is always a pleasure to listen in, and hear the history if they happen to want to talk about it.

 

overheard at REI during a Mountain Skiing presentation...

 

"I said, 'Reporting for the tenth mountain division, sir!' and he said, 'Son, as of now, you ARE the tenth mountian division!"

 

a recounting of reporting out west for duty during WWII by the first recruit to the vererated mountain division.

 

 

And a getting back to mountian trivia (culled from the beckey bibles)

 

What peaks were going to be named 'the three dicks' by the FA party?

[Lowell_Skoog]

Cpt.Caveman said:

Also my opinion is that Mr Majors has a beef with FB in such a way he feels compelled\intent to degrade his research at any chance without any recognition to the fact that he would have nothing to dispute if Mr Beckey had not compiled most of the information for him.

 

and

 

Although he sometimes is the discoverer sometimes he is not. THis puts readers at "awe". It seems sometimes this is a clever way to persuade the readers here into believing Mr Majors has done much of the work that has been done for him.

 

I normally don't fight other people's battles for them, but I suspect that Harry will let these comments from Ray go unchallenged.

 

I can't.

 

Ray, I'm afraid you don't know what you're talking about. Harry is an original researcher and has probably done every bit as much original research on the North Cascades as Fred Beckey. He has not simply relied on Beckey's work. Indeed, as I pointed out in my last post, Fred may have used Harry's work without adequately crediting him. I have tremendous respect for both Fred and Harry. If Washington were Japan they both would probably have been declared "national treasures" long ago. Your comments are uninformed.

[John_Roper]

Harry Majors wrote

I think that what I shall henceforth do is to avoid the topics of Fred and CAG entirely. This means that a lot of interesting information will not appear here that otherwise might have, but this approach (keeping certain information concealed at present) should also serve to keep the most vocal and persistent persons happy and quiet. Yes, they have succeeded in "silencing" this line of discussion. (This may be too strong a term, but I think that many readers who have been following this thread understand what has just happened here on cc.com over the past few days.) The information will, instead, first appear in published form, in historical and biographical studies that eventually will be forthcoming.

 

Say it ain't so, Harry. This forum, and the Cascades climbing community, will be much better served with your continued interesting insights and research.

 

Your nuggets about the Moxes, the Ptarmigans, Wolf Bauer, the Ragged Ridge names, Fred's peak totals, etc. have been fascinating. I don't see that you've said anything disrespectful, argumentative, degrading, or untrue about FB or CAG in your posts. You've called a spade a spade, as you know it. Ignore the sharp elbows. Truth be told, FB knew about the original names on Ragged Ridge (personal communication, plus Panther and Holyoke were in AAJ, and Ragged End and Gendarmes were in Mountaineer Annual), and he was aware of the English equivalent of the Chinook Jargon names he applied: Wicked/Obscene (Mesahchie), Middle (Katsuk), Behind/End (Kimtah), Pig (Cosho). Why he picked these names is another question. He also knew about Himmelgeister Horn, and The Blob, and The Stump, and Spectre.

 

Keep the fun coming, Harry. Don't make us wait for your next book!

 

[Cpt.Caveman]

Lowell_Skoog said:

Cpt.Caveman said:

Also my opinion is that Mr Majors has a beef with FB in such a way he feels compelled\intent to degrade his research at any chance without any recognition to the fact that he would have nothing to dispute if Mr Beckey had not compiled most of the information for him.

 

and

 

Although he sometimes is the discoverer sometimes he is not. THis puts readers at "awe". It seems sometimes this is a clever way to persuade the readers here into believing Mr Majors has done much of the work that has been done for him.

 

I normally don't fight other people's battles for them, but I suspect that Harry will let these comments from Ray go unchallenged.

 

I can't.

 

Ray, I'm afraid you don't know what you're talking about. Harry is an original researcher and has probably done every bit as much original research on the North Cascades as Fred Beckey. He has not simply relied on Beckey's work. Indeed, as I pointed out in my last post, Fred may have used Harry's work without adequately crediting him. I have tremendous respect for both Fred and Harry. If Washington were Japan they both would probably have been declared "national treasures" long ago. Your comments are uninformed.

 

Fair enough. I can respect that.

 

You obviously know more than I. But I felt compelled to intrusively investigate and charge where there was not much known. I have no regret in my remarks as they were respectable and thought out on my part. Some may disagree. My argument techniques change based upon factors. I never made any threatening response. Someone should give me a keg of beer.

 

My apologies to Harry if he is offended. But as I stated there was nothing more than opinions stated on many areas. I was never the "silencer" as made out to be....

 

Harry is playing a small game. He nows........................

Edited October 16, 2003 by Cpt.Caveman

[Dru]

Mesachie does not necessarily mean wicked/obscene. It can also be used to describe the black magical arts (curses, maledictions, evil spells) as practiced by a shaman, as opposed to the curative/transformative type of "good" magic. "Evil" might be closer than "wicked"; certainly "obscene" in the sense we think of obscenity, like pornography or certain curse phrases, seems like a stretch.

[Cpt.Caveman]

Dru said:

Mesachie does not necessarily mean wicked/obscene. It can also be used to describe the black magical arts (curses, maledictions, evil spells) as practiced by a shaman, as opposed to the curative/transformative type of "good" magic. "Evil" might be closer than "wicked"; certainly "obscene" in the sense we think of obscenity, like pornography or certain curse phrases, seems like a stretch.

 

No offense to Mr Roper but damn that is a good name then.

[Blake]

Here is some more NOCA trivia... which mountains in the North Cascades are named for places in the Lord of the Rings books by Tolkien? (There are at least three that are close together geographically that i know of)

[Lowell_Skoog]

Cpt.Caveman said:

I have no regret in my remarks as they were respectable and thought out on my part. Some may disagree.

 

Thanks Ray. I appreciate your thoughts and your efforts to keep the dialog respectful. Long live cc.com!

[Lowell_Skoog]

Blake said:

...which mountains in the North Cascades are named for places in the Lord of the Rings books by Tolkien?

 

I won't spill the beans yet. But since I'm as much a fan of The Lord of the Rings as of the Cascades, I'll suggest a bonus quiz: What is the significance of the names in Tolkien's books? (To be honest, I may have to consult the books again to figure out one of them.)

 

...just two more months until the 3rd movie comes out...

[Dru]

Lowell_Skoog said:

Blake said:

...which mountains in the North Cascades are named for places in the Lord of the Rings books by Tolkien?

 

I won't spill the beans yet. But since I'm as much a fan of The Lord of the Rings as of the Cascades, I'll suggest a bonus quiz: What is the significance of the names in Tolkien's books? (To be honest, I may have to consult the books again to figure out one of them.)

 

...just two more months until the 3rd movie comes out...

 

Named after swords and peaks of LOTR. It's in the right I am not saying the names either but it took like 15 seconds to look up.

[John_Roper]

Dru says: Mesachie does not necessarily mean wicked/obscene. It can also be used to describe the black magical arts (curses, maledictions, evil spells) as practiced by a shaman, as opposed to the curative/transformative type of "good" magic. "Evil" might be closer than "wicked"; certainly "obscene" in the sense we think of obscenity, like pornography or certain curse phrases, seems like a stretch.

I have not seen any sources that give the black magic twist to Mesahchie. Is there a Canadian reference for this? This is not a good word, in fact, it is the worst thought in Chinook Jargon.

 

Here's what a couple of authorative dictionaries of the Chinook Jargon say about this word:

 

The Chinook Book

by El Comancho (W.S.Phillips)

Copyright 1913

 

WICKED--VILE--SINFUL--DISSOLUTE--VICE--ROTTENNESS--OBSCENE--DEPRAVED--VICIOUS

MESAHCHE

"Mesahche" is used in Chinook to indicate anything worse than "Cultas" (bad). It conveys the idea of dirty vile-ness, vice, rottenness, etc. It is probably more often used to describe things as being obscene, depraved, etc., than in any other sense, though it covers the whole catalogue of things or conditions that are "worse than the worst," "rotten to the core," and all like ideas where the term "bad" does not reach far enough. It also means dangerous or "danger-from" vile things. The words used before or after it qualify its meaning or it is used to couple the vile meaning with the ordinary meaning of any other word.

 

Examples: "Delate mesahche man," "A very wicked man." (Wickedness understood to mean "the limit of human depravity" from all angles). "Mesahche klootchman," "A harlot." ....

 

(Spellings as are.)

 

The Chinook Jargon

by George C. Shaw

Copyright 1909

 

Me-sah-chie, adj., n. © (Chinook,-Masachi.) Bad; wicked; evil; vile; sin; bitter; cruel; depravity; dissolute; dung; filthy; immodest; nasty; obscene; vice; insolence; unworthy; unruly; iniquity; unrighteous; naughty. Example: Elip mesachie,--worse..... "Mesatchee,--bad, vile, vicious in the sense of vileness, filth, dirtiness, etc., whether in the abstract or in the concrete."

 

PS: Never did think those goofy, so-called Minas Ithil (FA really by Mike Swayne and Don Ihlenfeldt on 7/28/62) to Caradhras (Sarhdarac, spelled backwards) names had any relevance to North Cascades toponymy, and wonder why FB bought into these.

[Dru]

My source is a section of Clayton Mack's book "Bella Coola Man" called the Mesachie Box, describing black magic, in particular, a hamatsa (cannibal) dance in which a dead woman's head was dug out of a fresh grave and eaten by some shamen; also other black magic and bad occurrences from Nuxalk and his own personal history.

 

It may be a turn of phrase that was more commonly used up here than down there?

 

also I read somewhere that when Christian missionaries were preaching in the Campbell River area they described the Devil as being 'skookum mesachie' or 'hiyu mesachie' or some words to that effect - don't have the referece cause it was just a book from the library.

 

But in general I just don't think our word "Obscene" has the right connotation to mesachie. Wicked, vile, evil, yes...obscene sounds more like it has to do with peepshows or something... some sort of puritanical value judgement related to sexual acts...I know that the word obscene was not used in quite the same way in the 19th/early 20th century which is where the confusion might stem from.

[Dru]

As for the LOTR names: hmmmm. We have some up here too... Gandalf, Aragorn and Shadowfax in Phelix Creek.

 

Obviously LOTR had a lot of influence on certain generations of climbers. Half the climbing routes on Yamnuska have LOTR names... is it really any less of a relevant source for naming inspiration than Paul Bunyan (and his stump, and his bounding blue kangaroo) or naming peaks Primus and Tricouni after certain brands of hardware of the era?

 

Caradhras was stolen from Welsh by Tolkein directly, I believe it means - Red Mountain. (klenke there's another one for you). Mindolluin is more of a Tolkein coinage. Dol Amroth, Dol Goldur and Orthanc ditto.

[Blake]

Guess there were more than I knew! I was thinking Dol Amroth, orthanc and Carhadras. Any history on these names? Ok, next question.. what is the highest Lake in washington? (or where is it?) It is named, and somehow it is separate from a tarn. A geologist told me this one, so I'm hoping he was right.

[snafflehound]

I'd guess the highest lake would be the one in a grotto in the west crater of Mt. Rainier. I'm not aware of any name for it tho. -The Challenge of Rainier, Molenaar-

[Dru]

Blake said:

Guess there were more than I knew! I was thinking Dol Amroth, orthanc and Carhadras. Any history on these names? Ok, next question.. what is the highest Lake in washington? (or where is it?) It is named, and somehow it is separate from a tarn. A geologist told me this one, so I'm hoping he was right.

 

Dol Amroth means Crag of the (somethingorother). It's the high tower in the city of Gondor.

 

Orthanc is the other tower nearer to Mordor.

 

Dol Goldur is in Mordor, I think. It's marked on the LOTR map anyways if you have a book handy.

 

Caradhras is like I said, a stolen Welsh name. It's in the Misty Mountains. The Fellowship gets avalanched trying to cross it so they go through Moria instead. Big mistake. Mindolluin is also a peakin the Misty Mountains.

 

[AllYouCanEat]

Thanks for the info (aka chapters 1-8 ie pages). I've enjoyed the read. Just thought I'd say that before I return to lurking or (Cough, Cough) working...

Edited October 16, 2003 by AllYouCanEat

[klenke]

Blake, the highest lake question came up in this thread. I've seen 7,618-ft Libby Lake (in the Lake Chelan-Sawtooth Wilderness), and 7,760-ft Tranquil Lake and 7,800-ft Isolation Lake (near Aasgard Pass). To me, the one that most qualifies as a respectable lake is Libby. The other two present themselves more as large tarns than lakes. This is all in the interpretation of the beholder though.

 

Comment about Mesahchie Peak: gee, if I had known that mesahchie meant such vile things, I would have chosen to exclaim, "Mesahchie, mesahchie, mesahchie!" instead of other four letter words while descending that peak's super-choss gully down from the Mesachchchchchchie Glacier Couloir Col.

[John_Roper]

Orthanc

http://fan.theonering.net/middleearthtours/orthanc.html

 

Caradhras

http://fan.theonering.net/middleearthtours/caradhras.html

[HarryMajors]

Matt, Paul, Lowell, John, Cavey, along with the other posters, as well as the other readers who kindly sent me p.m.'s --- Thank you for your encouraging words. Your support is deeply appreciated.

 

I believe that what I shall do is to continue to post here, with discretion, and without any specified restrictions. There is much information that I feel should be shared with others. It will probably be years before my final studies are published. Lowell, I believe, has offered some illuminating insight, when he observes that by posting information here, prior to actual publication (pre-publishing, so to speak), "You get a chance to test drive your ideas with an outspoken audience and refine your arguments. I think this can be a valuable process for a researcher and writer."

 

This is wise advice, and I think that I shall heed it. What I am being provided with here is a glimpse into the future --- a glimpse as to how future historians and readers may view my writings. This is extremely valuable intelligence because, as Lowell observes, it allows me to to refine my arguments or modify my views. I will not personally be present in the future to produce counter-arguments or modifications. This is the next best thing.

 

Moreover, I believe it would be of interest to many cc.com readers to have access to much of this information. And I believe it would be to my own benefit to receive constructive input from cc.com readers in such matters.

 

Cavey --- You are a good man. You are loyal to your friends. That is an admirable attribute in an individual. You have my high respect for this.

 

 

[fern]

Beck:

if you look at a book like 'high adventure' by B and I Spring,

published in 1951, has a few crags featured, and wrong

names on things. and a reference to young 'Louis

Whittaker' and 'crag rats' and a feature called

'the chisel' which i can't find in the guidebooks...

 

The Chisel is in the pebbly texture brown CAG, shows up on

a map on p259 and in the descriptions somewhere around p278.

It is above Snow Creek on McLennan Ridge (opposite side to

the Snow Creek Wall) past the Toketie Ck junction. That

picture in High Adventure is looking up valley and you can

see Nada Lake.

[Lowell_Skoog]

HarryMajors said:

I believe it would be of interest to many cc.com readers to have access to much of this information. And I believe it would be to my own benefit to receive constructive input from cc.com readers in such matters.

 

Yes. When you take this attitude, forums like Usenet newsgroups and cc.com are not just time-wasters. They are tools for personal growth.

 

[Blake]

Cardinal Lake (it has an outlet to bear creek) on Cardinal peak in the Chelan Mountains west of Mt. Maude looks to be between 7,800 and 8,000. That is what I was told is the highest lake.

[klenke]

Is this the "lake" you're talking about: click here? This is the tarn ESE of Cardinal Peak's summit. The tarn eventually drains to Bear Creek, but it is not in Bear Creek proper (this creek is north of Cardinal). See attached map. It is about the only place that could hold a tarn. The head of Bear Creek itself--at least at elevations required to hold the highest lake in the state--is not flat anywhere.