Technique or Strength? 5.10-5.12

[coyote]

So, I am climbing like 5.10 to easy 5.11's....What's the difference between a 5.10-11 climber and a 5.12 climber? Strength or technique or both? Can you let me know what I might want to consider in my training to get there?

Thanks and safe climbing.......You guys always seem to have answers for everything.....

[chucK]

Yer a blowboater aren't ya!!?

[pope]

quote:

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Originally posted by coyote:

.What's the difference between a 5.10-11 climber and a 5.12 climber.

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Answer: one is a novice, the other is a bad amateur. It's so been so long since I climbed at such introductory levels, I honestly can't remember the difference. But I think 5.12 is where you might want to tie into a rope.

[coyote]

What's a blowboater and thanks for ripping on me.....

[pope]

Sorry for the snotty answer. I'm learning to be less sarcastic. But the answer (not like I know that much about it) has got to be that a strong climber with poor technique will struggle on 5.12, and an experienced climber with limp wrists will also struggle. Also, there are 5.12 routes that are so steep and powerful, only an extremely fit climber will ever get up. Then again, there are 5.12 slabs so thin and intense, your ability to do a one-arm with 35 pounds around your ankles might not help much.

To climb 5.12 solidly, on a variety of rock types, in a variety of situations....would seem to require both superb fitness and a thorough apprenticeship.

[coyote]

Thanks man, I thought I'd get a good answer from you.....

[JRCO]

I thought the saying was a 5.10 climber has a job. A 5.12 climber does not.

[ryland_moore]

Although I never thought it would help, and I can't believe I am admitting this, but I actually borrowed a friend's book called "How to Climb 5.12". Originally I felt like it would be a joke, but actually had really good techniques and ideas, and although I was not taking notes, I absorbed a lot of what was said regarding training for problems and routes I would work on and the like. Before reading this I would try any route I felt I wanted to try without strategically thinking how it would benefit me in the long run. I still do that on occassion, but also look at routes as ones for redpoint, ones for flashj, warm-up, or future projects as well. Coupling that with climbing with guys who climb 5.11-5.14 and using their encouragment has really helped me climb stonger, increase endurance, and most of all, improve my technique. I can also now say I enjoy sport climbing, mainly for the social aspects and the friendships. Maybe I am in a unique situation, but the support and encouragement I have received has been the same whether living in rural Tennessee near Foster Falls, Jackson, WY, or Eugene. Hope this helps.

[specialed]

I bet that most "hot shit" 5.14 climbers today couldn't get up on toprope some super technical footwork-intensive 5.11's put up in the 70's and 80's. How many 5.12/5.13 climbers do you know that climb that same grade on slabs. Very few.

[Dru]

i dunno about the calm and in control thing... you ever seen like Sharma or Graham or Doug Englekirk sketching up some route barely in control and fucking up sequences and kinda just hanging on there cause they have such good crimp strength....if they can sketch up 5.14 I can sketch up 5.11!

[coyote]

Heinous,

Yep, I agree with DM. You have awesome advice and not only just watching but BREATHING.....I have found breathing to be the biggest part of all my sports!!

[willstrickland]

I'll pass on dissing sportos for now and try to be helpful.

If you're bouldering V1/2 and climbing .10+/.11- sport, and your goal is to climb .12 crimpy/vert sport there are a couple of ways to go about it.

1. Climb loads of .8, .9, .10, and .11 By the time the .11s feel easy and you can onsight a fair amount of them, the .12s will come quickly with a little work. They'll also come regularly and with alot less frustration. By spending all your time working on one or two hard routes you'll be missing out on experiencing tons of fun climbing. I'll give you that this way will take longer, but it'll make you a better climber in the long run and probably keep your motivation higher.

2. Assess your particular strength. Are you better at power, endurance, or perhaps a particular technique such as thin slab? When you figure this out, pick a project that caters to that strength. Watch a few people climb the route for the beta. Throw a TR on it and go up to feel out all the moves, don't worry much about climbing the route, just see what's up there. Find where you will clip from, the sequences, etc and memorize them, a "topo" with the holds, moves, and clip stances will help. Work the route on TR and get the moves wired or do "linkage". This is where you start from some point near the top, say two or three bolts from the top and climb to the top on lead. You increase the linkage distance and when maybe halfway down or whatever you start trying the redpoint. The idea is that you'll have climbed the top moves a whole lot and have them completely wired so that when you're tired at the end of the route you can cruise the last moves. This will get you the "5.12" alot faster, but it won't make you a "5.12 climber". There is a difference, a big one.

Now, that said...ask yourself this:

Do I want to climb this level to open up new and more challenges to myself and to be able to climb some really cool routes? If so then go with the first way. You'll get good and you'll have tons of cool routes under your belt.

or

Do I want to climb this level to be able to say I have or impress someone? If yes then go with the second way and write yourself off as a poser wannabe who likes the IDEA of climbing more than the CLIMBING itself. It's up to you, but my favorite climbs have never been my hardest ones. Still, Red Rocks is typically soft for the grade and I've onsighted my hardest routes there so maybe make a trip to Vegas. It's all about what you want.

As for the crimpy/vert stuff, climb on that type terrain and you'll tune into it and develop strength etc paticular to that type terrain. That's gotta be my worst medium, thin verical crimps, but precision foot placement is huge.

[willstrickland]

quote:

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Originally posted by dyno merchant:

heinouscling...

If someone wants to get good fast they need to start climbing and hanging out with climbers better than them. IF you just hang out with climbers at your level all the time you may have a great time but they will struggle just like you on routes and your learning curve be slower.

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You know it works both ways though. For trad especially. I found that climbing with someone who was leading about a number grade or more BELOW me made me get better real quick. I ended up with all the harder leads and couldn't pass anything off to a stronger climber. Baptism by fire I guess.

[jblakley]

I have to agree with Will on that one. Finally redpointed a 5.12a at Red Rocks this last November and in no way would I call myself a 5.12 climber. The climb I did at RR in all honesty would probably be an 11c at Smith. I climb for a variety of reasons and numbers are way down the list. If I climbed only for the numbers I would be a bit depressed. :-)

[coyote]

Holy Shit WillStrickland!!!

That caught me offgaurd....Thanks for the positive info!

I've just been climbing with not too much thinking about my particular strengths...Yeah, i'm pretty much a poser and should be written off but I look cool with gear in my house and that's what counts right?

[dyno_merchant]

coyote,

one thing that helps me gain better technique and tension strength is slow motion climbing. can be done on routes and boulder problems. when you first start the exercise you should start on routes/problems that are easy for you (your not going to fall on). Climb very slowly and consistantly reading the route as you move up it. Breath every move. When you place your hand or foot on a hold do it percisely. Your hands and feet shouldn't make a noise as you place them. If you don't like how you are positioned move through the move anyway. After you reach the ground again look at the route or problem and note any places that you made noises placing your hands and feet on the wall and also note body positions that felt awkward. climb the route/problem as many times as it takes until you feel that you are climbing "quietly" and in efficient/smooth body positions.

an exercise that works good to get better tension is "toe taps". use all styles of holds for this exercise (slopers, crimps, pinches etc.)hang from the holds on an overhanging wall (feet need to be free hanging) and have someone point to a hold on the wall. you must lift your right leg up and place your right food on that hold (you need to try to show control with your foot/no swinging to the foothold and brushing it and then swinging away again) then go to the same hold with your left foot. repeat this with 4 to 8 holds (don't go to failure/stop one foot placement before you fail even if it is less than 4 foot holds). repeat this exercise until thrashed. this helps foot placement efficiency and helps on routes where your feet cut away and you need to get them back on again quickly

[coyote]

WillS,

By the way, Where in Vegas are you climbing?? I might make a trip out there.......

[Heinouscling]

quote:

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Originally posted by dyno merchant:

heinouscling...

if you didn't copy all that info from a training book than i'm impressed! All that info was awesome and it translates to all styles of climbing (trad, sport, bouldering...whatever). Every climber should read that and take note.

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Thanks dyno. I try to share whenever possible.

I've read a few books also, but none of them came close to helping me compared to actually watching the principles put into action. I remember by "seeing and doing" and I can tell you that I saw plenty of what I stated previously, regarding climbing 5.12.

Sort of like Lion cubs watching mother hunt.

Regarding partners, yes, thats another big one. I didn't bust into 5.11 climbing until I hooked up with my current partner who was climbing 5.11 when I met him. Now we both have a very strong desire to get into 5.12. We feed off from each other and we constantly discuss our strategy for how we might accomplish this. We've made it our goal to be climbing 5.12 with decent style by the end of the coming Summer.

I don't believe it would be best to hook up with someone too far above your current ability or else you just end up flailing. The worst outcome would be to end up injured. I believe to get into 5.12 climbing will be a slow progression (for me anyhow).

-Heinous

[dyno_merchant]

[ 01-24-2002: Message edited by: dyno merchant ]

[willstrickland]

quote:

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Originally posted by coyote:

WillS,By the way, Where in Vegas are you climbing?? I might make a trip out there.......

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I'll be on the Rainbow Wall Reg Route the last week of Feb. We'll probably hit it right out of the gate and then spend the remaining 4 or 5 days climbing long trad routes. I arrive in Vegas on 2/23 and fly back to Portland on 3/2.

[dyno_merchant]

quote:

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Originally posted by willstrickland:

You know it works both ways though. For trad especially. I found that climbing with someone who was leading about a number grade or more BELOW me made me get better real quick. I ended up with all the harder leads and couldn't pass anything off to a stronger climber.

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i agree, getting with stronger climbers helps in bouldering and sportclimbing in many cases but for trad you could get hurt pretty fast if your jumping onto routes that are to far above your ability. and in general your main goal is to have fun so you shouldn't be getting all crazy about pulling super hard if it's scaring the shit out of you, putting you in dangerous positions or plain not fun.

[Heinouscling]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dru:

i dunno about the calm and in control thing... you ever seen like Sharma or Graham or Doug Englekirk sketching up some route barely in control and fucking up sequences and kinda just hanging on there cause they have such good crimp strength....if they can sketch up 5.14 I can sketch up 5.11!

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5.14 is generally regarded as pushing the envelope of the capabilities of today's generation of climbers (or, 5.15 now). There is a world of difference between 5.12 and 5.14. Especially 5.14D. Of coarse Sharma will probably be sketching on 5.14D. Thats fucking hard shit to climb!

Regarding Sharma's climbing style, I've read that he tends to flail his feet no matter what he happens to be climbing. Its his personal style and it seems to work for him. I was not implying that all climbers use the principles I stated previously. Just the ones that I've witnessed climbing 5.12 and above.

Dru, don't try to justify your shitty technique and style by placing your attempted routes in the same catagory as the hard shit that Sharma and Graham are playing on. 5.9s and 5.10s are hardly comparable to 5.14.

-Heinous

[Dru]

quote:

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Originally posted by Heinouscling:

Dru, don't try to justify your shitty technique and style by placing your attempted routes in the same catagory as the hard shit that Sharma and Graham are playing on. 5.9s and 5.10s are hardly comparable to 5.14.

-Heinous

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Look assmunch thats pretty bold talking about style cause we will see who has the better style in Lillooet this weekend. I have been training a bottle of rum a night for the last month. Im going to still be sending (beers down my throat ) while you are passed out in a frozen puddle of puke outside the back door of the pub. I give you warning

PS If you wanna put your money where your mouth is climbing I got some routes in Squamish for you to fail on

[Heinouscling]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dru:

Look assmunch

thats pretty bold talking about style cause we will see who has the better style in Lillooet this weekend. I have been training

a bottle of rum a night for the last month. Im going to still be sending (beers down my throat

) while you are passed out in a frozen puddle of puke outside the back door of the pub. I give you warning

PS If you wanna put your money where your mouth is climbing I got some routes in Squamish for you to fail on

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Ah shit, now you're trying to compare 5.11 sport to ice climbing? Dru, please.

I've never climbed with you Dru so you have to know that I was pulling your chain. Didn't you see the Razz gremlin? Besides, I consider it very bad style to comment on someone else's climbing unless said person puts your life in danger and you feel obligated to warn someone who may be considering that person as a partner. Also, YOU admitted to sketching on 5.11.

As for my own climbing, I firmly believe in modesty. Action, not words! But this topic sort of pushed me into commenting on my climbing which I try to steer away from. Because, in all honesty, I DO SUCK!! I just had a "good day" a few months back. Now my beer belly won't let me get up anything.

As for Squamish? Crack and sport are two different animals and I readily admit that I suck at crack.

Now, when it comes to pleasuring women, there is no "better" then I.

-Heinous

[coyote]

WillS

What's the area called in Vegas?? Did you say Red Rocks?? I've been as far as Barstow for climbing....and Williamson.....down here..Is it similar to Smith??