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"We hold these Truths to be self evident, that all Men are created equal and are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness - That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it …"

 

Very rough talk, wouldn't you say? The founders of this republic insisted that the rights of man are not granted, nor may they be abridged, by the state. Neither the US Constitution, nor any other, can grant you a right which comes from God - nor can it abrogate such right. If either the people or its representatives were to abolish the right of the people to keep and bear arms, such action would be both invalid and immoral. Let us bear in mind when we celebrate our national holiday that we acknowledge and invoke the presence of God in our social structure. Americans who do not believe that are welcome to stick around, but not to have their arguments taken seriously. We face desperate times ahead, and we need all the help we can get, both below and above. coop

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Posted

Note that the "right to bare arms" is NOT listed amoung those rights "endowed by thier creator". So banning guns could not be considdered immoral.

 

Sorry. My only creators are my parents. smileysex5.gif

 

Posted
hakioawa said:

Note that the "right to bare arms" is NOT listed amoung those rights "endowed by thier creator". So banning guns could not be considdered immoral.

 

Sorry. My only creators are my parents. smileysex5.gif

 

It is an extension of your right to "Life" and "Liberty" in that only YOU have the ability to decide how best to guarantee and protect those rights. Notice, also, that it says "...among these rights..." This implies that there are others, legions of them, that the founders chose not to list and, therefore, left it open to the broad range of rights that we all truly do have.

Posted
Greg_W said:

hakioawa said:

Note that the "right to bare arms" is NOT listed amoung those rights "endowed by thier creator". So banning guns could not be considdered immoral.

 

Sorry. My only creators are my parents. smileysex5.gif

 

It is an extension of your right to "Life" and "Liberty" in that only YOU have the ability to decide how best to guarantee and protect those rights. Notice, also, that it says "...among these rights..." This implies that there are others, legions of them, that the founders chose not to list and, therefore, left it open to the broad range of rights that we all truly do have.

 

Then why was that right explicitly spelled out in the Bill of Rights (which it arguably wasn't . . . well regulated militia. . etc. etc. etc.) while the rights to "life liberty and the pursuit of happiness were not? Seem to me the drafters were pretty specific. No where does it say the right to bare arms is endowed by the creator.

Posted
Greg_W said:

hakioawa said:

Note that the "right to bare arms" is NOT listed amoung those rights "endowed by thier creator". So banning guns could not be considdered immoral.

 

Sorry. My only creators are my parents. smileysex5.gif

 

It is an extension of your right to "Life" and "Liberty" in that only YOU have the ability to decide how best to guarantee and protect those rights. Notice, also, that it says "...among these rights..." This implies that there are others, legions of them, that the founders chose not to list and, therefore, left it open to the broad range of rights that we all truly do have.

 

rolleyes.gif

Posted
hakioawa said:

Greg_W said:

hakioawa said:

Note that the "right to bare arms" is NOT listed amoung those rights "endowed by thier creator". So banning guns could not be considdered immoral.

 

Sorry. My only creators are my parents. smileysex5.gif

 

It is an extension of your right to "Life" and "Liberty" in that only YOU have the ability to decide how best to guarantee and protect those rights. Notice, also, that it says "...among these rights..." This implies that there are others, legions of them, that the founders chose not to list and, therefore, left it open to the broad range of rights that we all truly do have.

 

Then why was that right explicitly spelled out in the Bill of Rights (which it arguably wasn't . . . well regulated militia. . etc. etc. etc.) while the rights to "life liberty and the pursuit of happiness were not? Seem to me the drafters were pretty specific. No where does it say the right to bare arms is endowed by the creator.

 

The GUARANTEE of our right to keep and bear arms is specifically spelled out in the Bill of Rights (as with all 10) because the Founders were worried about the trampling of these specific rights and wanted clear language about there protection. Also, items in the Bill of Rights were things that they had seen trampled by the Crown and were particularly sensitive to.

Posted
erik said:

Greg_W said:

hakioawa said:

Note that the "right to bare arms" is NOT listed amoung those rights "endowed by thier creator". So banning guns could not be considdered immoral.

 

Sorry. My only creators are my parents. smileysex5.gif

 

It is an extension of your right to "Life" and "Liberty" in that only YOU have the ability to decide how best to guarantee and protect those rights. Notice, also, that it says "...among these rights..." This implies that there are others, legions of them, that the founders chose not to list and, therefore, left it open to the broad range of rights that we all truly do have.

 

rolleyes.gif

 

I know it's against your nature to take a stand or be passionate about anything, Erik, so fuck off. It's nice that you live in a country where you can roll your eyes at the rights that have been guaranteed you by forward thinking individuals 230 years ago.

Posted

Greg...that is not the reason for bearing arms!

 

The reason was because we were initially a dirtpoor country that couldn't even begin to maintain a decent standing army...so it was a decent method to equip the country for defense! Just like every household in switzerland maintains fully automatic assualt rifles...

Posted
Greg_W said:

erik said:

Greg_W said:

hakioawa said:

Note that the "right to bare arms" is NOT listed amoung those rights "endowed by thier creator". So banning guns could not be considdered immoral.

 

Sorry. My only creators are my parents. smileysex5.gif

 

It is an extension of your right to "Life" and "Liberty" in that only YOU have the ability to decide how best to guarantee and protect those rights. Notice, also, that it says "...among these rights..." This implies that there are others, legions of them, that the founders chose not to list and, therefore, left it open to the broad range of rights that we all truly do have.

 

rolleyes.gif

 

I know it's against your nature to take a stand or be passionate about anything, Erik, so fuck off. It's nice that you live in a country where you can roll your eyes at the rights that have been guaranteed you by forward thinking individuals 230 years ago.

amen thumbs_up.gifthumbs_up.gif erik blows goats

 

Amendment II

 

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

 

Posted

Thanks trask...proves my point that arms under current situation (most powerful standing army ever known in history) are definitely not a right nor a requirement...more of a privilege if you ask me....

Posted
RuMR said:

Thanks trask...proves my point that arms under current situation (most powerful standing army ever known in history) are definitely not a right nor a requirement...more of a privilege if you ask me....

interpret it any way you want....the crux is this: the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. read it and weep, doves. the_finger.gif

 

Posted
trask said:

RuMR said:

Thanks trask...proves my point that arms under current situation (most powerful standing army ever known in history) are definitely not a right nor a requirement...more of a privilege if you ask me....

interpret it any way you want....the crux is this: the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. read it and weep, doves. the_finger.gif

 

Keep reading it and you will see the purpose...got nothin' to do w/ redneck's inalienable right to shoot up beer cans and stopsigns!

 

And i'm hardly what you'd call a dove...

 

Posted

...and there's no chance that a bunch of old guys back in the 1700's would not necessarily predict what life would be like in 2003...they'd probably laugh at us for trying to follow the letter of these laws w/o budging

Posted
erik said:

i love sound bites, that way you can make a statement say what you want it too, without the whole context!

 

 

yeah no doubt...just like statistics...you can prove or disprove just about anything w/ them...

 

The extreme religious right tends to quote a lot of the bible out of context as well...crax me up...

Posted
RuMR said:

Greg...that is not the reason for bearing arms!

 

The reason was because we were initially a dirtpoor country that couldn't even begin to maintain a decent standing army...so it was a decent method to equip the country for defense! Just like every household in switzerland maintains fully automatic assualt rifles...

 

You are incorrect. Read supporting documentation of the time: Jefferson, Adams, Hamilton, Federalist Papers, etc.

Posted
RuMR said:

i have read them...and i think they agree w/ my interpretation...as does nearly every other history professor that i've studied under...

 

Many Constitutional scholars are changing their minds on that; even liberal ones. 2nd Amendment guarantees the INDIVIDUAL's right to bear arms, being consistent with the wording of the First Amendment in addressing the INDIVIDUAL

Posted
RuMR said:

only to make the INDIVIDUAL pay for equipping himself as opposed to the poor STATE paying for it...hence the whole concept of militias... rolleyes.gif

 

You're offbase and miss the whole point, so, whatever. We'll disagree.

Posted

agree to disagree...

 

I still think its our privilege until you screw up though! Some of my best memories involve tramping through the woods w/ .22's...thought hunting sucked cuz i got bored too easily...but man, plinkin' was the shit...

Posted
RuMR said:

I still think its our privilege until you screw up though

 

Your privilege to decide the most basic of all rights: how to defend yourself and those you love? Privileges can be taken away, your right to protect and defend yourself (a foundational point in the Natural Law theory that influenced the Founding Fathers) cannot be taken away.

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