This is NOT another sport vs trad debate!

[Dru]

This is a vs debate

[iain]

heads up! Dwanyer mega-post incoming!

[Dwayner]

Alpine K gotta throw himself into the mix!

 

A.K: "Back at a Pub Club in Tacoma I remember a discussion MattP, Dwayner and I had regarding bolts. Now I'm pretty much a trad climber, but when I listen to Dwayner talk about bolts it's very obvious he is totally unwilling to even think about other points of view regarding bolting."

 

Dwayner say: Hey amazing Kreskin...if you really think you have a grasp regarding how I or anyone else processes and evaluates information based on pub-club conversations, you need to share your knowledge with science...I think there might be a Nobel prize waiting for you. I have thought about these issues for years from a variety of perspectives, and frankly, I haven't heard any new viewpoints that would come even close to sway my basic convictions. When I do hear something new and profound, I'll let you know.

 

A.K: "My advice to more reasonable folks out there is to ignore both Dwayner and Pope."

 

Dwayner say: For someone who just suggested that I have a closed mind, YOU have just invited people to IGNORE me 'n pope, thus depriving them of making up their own minds. Go figger.

 

A.K: "[Dwayner and pope] are both dinosaurs and they will turn to oil soon."

 

Dwayner say: If my refusal to embrace sport-climbing makes me a dinosaur, then you may call me Dwayner rex (or anglicized, King Dwayner.)

 

A.K: "And Dwayner if you really want to do something for the environment vote against GW next election."

 

Dwayner say: I'll wait and see who runs against him.

 

[Peter_Puget]

Dwayner said:

Alpine K gotta throw himself into the mix!

 

A.K: "Back at a Pub Club in Tacoma I remember a discussion MattP, Dwayner and I had regarding bolts. Now I'm pretty much a trad climber, but when I listen to Dwayner talk about bolts it's very obvious he is totally unwilling to even think about other points of view regarding bolting."

 

Dwayner say: Hey amazing Kreskin...if you really think you have a grasp regarding how I or anyone else processes and evaluates information based on pub-club conversations, you need to share your knowledge with science...I think there might be a Nobel prize waiting for you. I have thought about these issues for years from a variety of perspectives, and frankly, I haven't heard any new viewpoints that would come even close to sway my basic convictions. When I do hear something new and profound, I'll let you know.

 

A.K: "My advice to more reasonable folks out there is to ignore both Dwayner and Pope."

 

Dwayner say: For someone who just suggested that I have a closed mind, YOU have just invited people to IGNORE me 'n pope, thus depriving them of making up their own minds. Go figger.

 

A.K: "[Dwayner and pope] are both dinosaurs and they will turn to oil soon."

 

Dwayner say: If my refusal to embrace sport-climbing makes me a dinosaur, then you may call me Dwayner rex (or anglicized, King Dwayner.)

 

A.K: "And Dwayner if you really want to do something for the environment vote against GW next election."

 

Dwayner say: I'll wait and see who runs against him.

 

I have thought about your posts for years from a variety of perspectives, and frankly, I haven't heard any new viewpoints that would come even close to sway my basic conviction which is (and I say this sadly and I mean that most seriously) the primary point of any of your diatribes is a desire to put the other down! Any argument comes second.

 

PP

[Dwayner]

Petey just can't quit!

 

Petey's attempt at humor:

"I have thought about your posts for years from a variety of perspectives, and frankly, I haven't heard any new viewpoints that would come even close to sway my basic conviction which is (and I say this sadly and I mean that most seriously) the primary point of any of your diatribes is a desire to put the other down! Any argument comes second."

 

a) I suppose I first logged into this hell-hole two years ago. Don't remember, or care, when I first ran into Petey.

 

b) your analysis of my intentions and motivations is wrong, as usual. It's been said before...your attempts at pop-psychoanalysis are pathetic.

 

I thought this was over.....you really want to go at it again?????

 

 

 

[pope]

AlpineK said:

 

My advice to more reasonable folks out there is to ignore both Dwayner and Pope. They are both dinosaurs and they will turn to oil soon.

 

 

Alpine, I believe you's older than I's. You're advising folks to ignore our advice? My advice to y'all is to get a crowbar (Alpine K has one .... but mine is bigger, as he found out when we met at Index one day with the intent of joining forces to retard the evil echelons of chicken bolts).

 

I only jumped in to this rerun episode because Dwayner informed me at the bar last evening that Rumor had accused me of being logical and cordial in these discussions.

 

Peter (yawn), Dick Cilley told me that he's never placed a protection bolt, and he spent many hours at camp in Joshua Tree one night about ten years ago dressing down bolt-clippin' assholes like you.

[Peter_Puget]

pope said:

Peter (yawn), Dick Cilley told me that he's never placed a protection bolt, and he spent many hours at camp in Joshua Tree one night about ten years ago dressing down bolt-clippin' assholes like you.

 

Now just when did I say anything about placing bolts with Dick.

 

At least try to be more responsive to what was actually said.

 

I am glad your one evening with Dick was so memorable. See you do have a thing for the climbing legends of Washington! I thought you did protest too much.

 

PP

 

 

[mattp]

Dwayner said:

Could I myself climb a 5.13 by such methods. I think so. And so could you. I am sure it would take me a long, long time of rehearsing, dangling and swinging but I don't think it's an unreasonable "accomplishment". ...P.S....I never used the word "coward".

 

Come now, Dwayner.

 

You haven't just issued this challenged on behalf of Richard Simmons and his grandma, but you have said, and you repeated here, that YOU could climb 5.13. I think you may be a little over confident and I (for one) would be impressed to see you climb ANY 5.13 in the State of Washington, given ANY amount of training and rehearsing. Start practicing!

 

As to your use of the word "cowardly," how many times have you carried on about how sport bolters were "bringing the climb down to their level" and how many times have you said how much of a better world this would be if they'd leave the rock alone until they had the balls to climb it.

[pope]

Peter_Puget said:

pope said:

Peter (yawn), Dick Cilley told me that he's never placed a protection bolt, and he spent many hours at camp in Joshua Tree one night about ten years ago dressing down bolt-clippin' assholes like you.

 

Now just when did I say anything about placing bolts with Dick.

 

At least try to be more responsive to what was actually said.

 

I am glad your one evening with Dick was so memorable. See you do have a thing for the climbing legends of Washington! I thought you did protest too much.

 

PP

 

 

After reminding us that you and Richard are practically best friends, you then stated that his only complaints about sport climbs are directed toward those which do not end on ledges. Then you informed us that Richard has parallel disapproval of crack routes that end similarly. Did I read correctly? Now, if this is the case, if this is Richard's only objection to sport climbs, then isn't it interesting that he that claimed never to have placed a bolt? Sounds to me like he has more objections to sport climbing than you are suggesting. I'm pretty sure he does, based on the last conversation I had with him (which has been a couple of years).

 

One thing that was memorable about that conversation was how Richard said he thought the climbing in Joshua Tree was so much better than at the City of Rocks. Why? His primary reason was that JOSHUA TREE SEEMED FAR MORE NATURAL, FAR LESS ENGINEERED. He pointed out how many climbs at Joshua Tree do not have belay anchors. Even a large number of top-rope problems had no anchor, requiring that you spend time rigging a anchor that might even require a second rope. I remember thinking at the time that this was an extreme anti-bolt attitude, but with time it began to make sense.

 

Another thing that was memorable was when Richard kept returning to our camp fire night after night, stating that we were the most entertaining group in Hidden Valley.

 

Richard's not my hero. I only brought up his name in connection with the quote (that aid climbing is just crude engineering and not worth the effort). I do think his attitude sets him apart. He's put up some extremely difficult boulder and TR problems. He could have bolted some of these but he either thought it wasn't worth the effort or (and I suspect this is equally accurate), his sense of aesthetics wouldn't allow it.

 

I've had a number of conversations with Dick Cilley. Most weren't memorable ("You want to buy some cams? No? See ya").

 

Peter, I'm impressed with indefatigable ability to swallow your own foot. Don't go changin' to try to please me.

[JayB]

mattp said:

Dwayner said:

Could I myself climb a 5.13 by such methods. I think so. And so could you. I am sure it would take me a long, long time of rehearsing, dangling and swinging but I don't think it's an unreasonable "accomplishment". ...P.S....I never used the word "coward".

 

Come now, Dwayner.

 

You haven't just issued this challenged on behalf of Richard Simmons and his grandma, but you have said, and you repeated here, that YOU could climb 5.13. I think you may be a little over confident and I (for one) would be impressed to see you climb ANY 5.13 in the State of Washington, given ANY amount of training and rehearsing. Start practicing!

 

 

Hey Man - this is just like the good old days. Where's Lambone?

 

Bolting permanently alters the rock. That's a matter of fact. Whether that is a good thing or a bad thing is a matter of opinion. If your actions are inconsistent with your rhetoric this does, in fact, render you a less effective advocate for the opinions you espouse.

 

Unlike your claim that the advent of sport-climbing has had a number of detrimental effects on the sport, your claim that you could redpoint a legitimate 5.13 route is eminently testable. If doing so is as trivial as you have claimed, it shouldn't take you very long at all to do so. I personally think that the real reason that you've declined to even try is that you'll get shut down cold, every time, no matter how hard you try. I'd be willing to bet that you could dedicate every remaining moment of your life to the task and never even come close.

 

This is not to say that you have not or cannot climb at a high level. I've been around some people that climb at an extremely high level relative to the general climbing population - folks that were leading in the low 12's on trad routes (very rare) and in the mid to high 12's sport (not as rare but fairly uncommon) - and they couldn't even touch 5.13. These were fairly talented people at their peak of their fitness, dedicating just about all of their spare time to the sport. The fact that so few people ever even comes close to redpointing 5.13 sport routes proves that sport routes at that level are exceptionally difficult, and require a level of strength and skill that very few climbers will ever have. You claim the opposite. I say that your current and future inability to even come close to climbing such a route settles the argument.

 

We've met. Your not a bad guy, and even though my posts might sound hostile, they are really not meant to be. But listening to you claim that you could climb 5.13 if you really wanted to is like listening to a buddy claim that he could hook-up a three-way with Heidi Klum and the Playmate of the Year if he wanted to. I'd laugh at him and call bullshit on his claim immediately, as I'm doing with your claim that you are capable of redpointing a legit 5.13 now. If I'm wrong, prove it and I'll apologize.

[carolyn]

Ya know, I THINK I initially started this post because I was exposed to a new form of climbing and wanted to share my reactions. I wanted to voice some of the ethics I have begun to develop. At the same time, I did not want to completey negate those who think differently.

 

I will be the first to admit I have not read this thread word for word. Its not that I dont care what others have to say on the subject. Its Mainly, because I have read, heard, and discussed this argument over and over again with a number of different people in the past.

 

My thoughts on the subject have not changed much.

 

Basically, as minx summed it up..."it all has its place".

 

Bouldering/traversing has a place for me. It serves as a good training ground (pysically and mentally). It allows me to go into that 'flow' mode.

 

Sport climbing MIGHT allow me to work on my confidence while on lead. I still dont think I am comfortable with allowing myself to hang from bolts in order to finish a lead. I dont know the reason behind that yet. It just doesnt feel right. It doesnt mean I see someone who does hangdog the route as a disgrace or wrong.

 

On the flipside, I do enjoy toproping challenging routes. I cant remember how I climbed something from one minute to the next. So for me, the issue of rehearsing is just not an option. (maybe my strength will be in redpointing routes, eh? )

 

The ultimate climbing experience for me is leading a trad route, within my ability, yet somewhat mentally challenging. As Ive said before, I enjoy the puzzle of placing pieces - when, where, how , and why. I feel a different (and better) sense of accomplishment when I can lead a trad route.

 

I enjoy climbing, period. I will follow what my gut (or heart) says is right. However, I wont dismiss the other opporunities available to me if they will make me stronger and better at what I really enjoy.

 

 

[Fence_Sitter]

dedicating just about all of their spare time to the sport.

 

spare time...i do believe hommes implied that they would receive ample compensation that they not need jobs and can dedicate all time to climbing... quite the difference...

[JayB]

carolyn said:

Sport climbing MIGHT allow me to work on my confidence while on lead. I still dont think I am comfortable with allowing myself to hang from bolts in order to finish a lead. I dont know the reason behind that yet. It just doesnt feel right.

 

I don't typically hang from bolts or try to lead routes that are well beyond my abilities for the simple fact that I don't enjoy it. I find it terribly frustrating and not especially pleasant. If overestimate my abilities and get shut-down, but I think there's a reasonable chance that I can get up the thing, I'll keep going - not because it's fun but because I just don't want to leave any gear on the route. If there's someone that can lead the route and get the gear back, I'll gladly pass the baton to them and get on something that I will actually enjoy. Every now and then I'll take a beating and come back for more, but not often.

 

No deeper motivations or philosophical barriers to hangdogging for me. I just don't enjoy it.

 

 

[JayB]

Fence_Sitter said:

dedicating just about all of their spare time to the sport.

 

spare time...i do believe hommes implied that they would receive ample compensation that they not need jobs and can dedicate all time to climbing... quite the difference...

 

It goes like this: Subject--->Verb----->Noun.

 

Some of us slow kids need complete sentences to understand what you are trying to say, homes.

[Fence_Sitter]

JayB said:

Fence_Sitter said:

dedicating just about all of their spare time to the sport.

 

spare time...i do believe hommes implied that they would receive ample compensation that they not need jobs and can dedicate all time to climbing... quite the difference...

 

It goes like this: Subject--->Verb----->Noun.

 

Some of us slow kids need complete sentences to understand what you are trying to say, homes.

 

wah... whatever fuck sticks always use the spelling cop-out when you get up a tree...

[carolyn]

JayB-

I think that is a part of it for me. I started climbing with folks who put me on super hard climbs I could never finish. They told me you can only get better if you do climbs that are too hard. Whatever! (I dont climb with them anymore).

 

I dont get frustrated too easily. Frustration is a big sign for me to stop and move on. I will usually only 'work' it if I think its within my ability . Its taken some time, but Im finally recognizing when I "can" do something (maybe with a bit of extra thinking/hanging) and when its just too damn hard for me.

[JayB]

Fence:

 

I wasn't trying to dodge your argument or pick a fight with you dude. However, your entry was poorly written, and had no clear meaning. It could be interpreted a number of different ways, which is why I asked for a clarification.

[Peter_Puget]

pope said:

Peter_Puget said:

pope said:

Peter (yawn), Dick Cilley told me that he's never placed a protection bolt, and he spent many hours at camp in Joshua Tree one night about ten years ago dressing down bolt-clippin' assholes like you.

 

Now just when did I say anything about placing bolts with Dick.

 

At least try to be more responsive to what was actually said.

 

I am glad your one evening with Dick was so memorable. See you do have a thing for the climbing legends of Washington! I thought you did protest too much.

 

PP

 

I hate injecting comments like this but Pope's response is so all over the place that I will.

 

After reminding us that you and Richard are practically best friends, you then stated that his only complaints about sport climbs are directed toward those which do not end on ledges. Then you informed us that Richard has parallel disapproval of crack routes that end similarly. Did I read correctly?

 

Well kind of here is what I actually said:

"Pope's comments are as usual full of vitriol and goofiness. Why he quotes Dick I am not sure but I can say that I have spent many hours bouldering and climbing sport routes with Dick. His main whine about sport routes is that many end in space rather than at a ledge/stance. To him this is a bogus route. The same would hold true to a crack which ended at a blank section." I wrote we went sport climbing and your characterizing this as "reminding us that we are best of friends" is simply not true. This alone makes your restatement inaacurate. But a greater inacuracy come from this coment of yours: "you then stated that his only complaints about sport climbs are directed toward those which do not end on ledges." WHat I actually said was:"His main whine about sport routes is that many end in space rather than at a ledge/stance." There is a distinct difference. If I was the kind to view humans negatively I would think such errors were made with malice but since I do not I will assume it was an honest mistake.

 

snipped away some BS here

 

Anyway beside misrepresenting what I wrote your post is entirely consistant with what I said. Dick and I have climbed many sport routes. To find over engineered and squeezed in routes not as attractive as those less engineered and spread out is I would think a fairly common reaction and does not equate with hating all sport routes.

 

 

Another thing that was memorable was when Richard kept returning to our camp fire night after night, stating that we were the most entertaining group in Hidden Valley.

 

you're so precious Pope

 

 

 

PP

[Dwayner]

MattP....I'm surprised you've even involved yourself in this.

Either my original points was/were lost to you and others or you just want to hear some more?

 

Jay B says: "If doing so is as trivial as you have claimed, it shouldn't take you very long at all to do so. I personally think that the real reason that you've declined to even try is that you'll get shut down cold, every time, no matter how hard you try. I'd be willing to bet that you could dedicate every remaining moment of your life to the task and never even come close."

 

First of all, don't even think you can speak for my motivations.

Secondly, what a horrible thing to say to someone you don't even know! That's like me saying to you, no matter how much you try, Jay, you'll never be smart, clever or well-educated, no matter how long you live. What a foolish statement that would be! I'll tell you what....when the time comes when I am bored enough and rich enough to afford to go out and hang-dog incessently for a month or however long it takes, I'll let you know. I'll call Richard Simmons and see if he'll belay me with a GRI-GRI!!! By the way...I never said it wouldn't take long, I just said that it could be done. Even by you and even by MattP and I venture a good many people reading this. If you lack confidence in your own potential...that's your problem. IF YOU'VE GOT THE TIME AND MONEY, PROVE TO ME THAT I'M RIGHT!

 

I've pretty much said what I have to say...unless you dogs wish to continue to bait and chew!

 

ahoy! - Dwayner

[Fence_Sitter]

JayB said:

Fence:

 

I wasn't trying to dodge your argument or pick a fight with you dude. However, your entry was poorly written, and had no clear meaning. It could be interpreted a number of different ways, which is why I asked for a clarification.

 

fine....you stated that your friends couldn't crank 5.13 on their spare time... what dwayner implied is that it would require climbing to be your job... hence the allusion to the dollar figures he would require... this is because he could not do so with a full time job...

[Peter_Puget]

FS - Oddly most of the people I know that climbed in the highest grades (13c -14a) either had full time jobs, were in med school and were married when they climbed at this level.

 

 

I can think of three of them in the 14 category right now.

PP

[JayB]

Fence_Sitter said:

JayB said:

Fence:

 

I wasn't trying to dodge your argument or pick a fight with you dude. However, your entry was poorly written, and had no clear meaning. It could be interpreted a number of different ways, which is why I asked for a clarification.

 

fine....you stated that your friends couldn't crank 5.13 on their spare time... what dwayner implied is that it would require climbing to be your job... hence the allusion to the dollar figures he would require... this is because he could not do so with a full time job...

 

Most people- including myself - couldn't climb 5.13 even if doing so was their sole object in life. If someone is climbing hard 12's when climbing is merely a past-time then perhaps their claims that they could redpoint 5.13 if only they had enough time would have some credibility. If Dwayner heads down to Smith next weekend and sends some 12's then perhaps his claims would be worth something, but in the absence of any such evidence, they deserve the ridicule that they are getting.

[pope]

carolyn said:

Ya know, I THINK I initially started this post because I was exposed to a new form of climbing and wanted to share my reactions. I wanted to voice some of the ethics I have begun to develop. At the same time, I did not want to completey negate those who think differently.

 

I will be the first to admit I have not read this thread word for word. Its not that I dont care what others have to say on the subject. Its Mainly, because I have read, heard, and discussed this argument over and over again with a number of different people in the past.

 

My thoughts on the subject have not changed much.

 

Basically, as minx summed it up..."it all has its place".

 

Bouldering/traversing has a place for me. It serves as a good training ground (pysically and mentally). It allows me to go into that 'flow' mode.

 

Sport climbing MIGHT allow me to work on my confidence while on lead. I still dont think I am comfortable with allowing myself to hang from bolts in order to finish a lead. I dont know the reason behind that yet. It just doesnt feel right. It doesnt mean I see someone who does hangdog the route as a disgrace or wrong.

 

On the flipside, I do enjoy toproping challenging routes. I cant remember how I climbed something from one minute to the next. So for me, the issue of rehearsing is just not an option. (maybe my strength will be in redpointing routes, eh? )

 

The ultimate climbing experience for me is leading a trad route, within my ability, yet somewhat mentally challenging. As Ive said before, I enjoy the puzzle of placing pieces - when, where, how , and why. I feel a different (and better) sense of accomplishment when I can lead a trad route.

 

I enjoy climbing, period. I will follow what my gut (or heart) says is right. However, I wont dismiss the other opporunities available to me if they will make me stronger and better at what I really enjoy.

 

 

Yes, by all means enjoy what rock climbing has to offer and do whatever makes you a better climber, etc. etc. etc. But keep in mind that top-roping can teach you everything you need to know about strength and endurance/flowing over stone or whatever. If trad leads give you the ultimate sense of accomplishment, I don't think clipping bolts offers much more in the way of preparation than does top-roping. The best way to gain confidence and improve is to lead hundreds of pitches this season that are within your current level. It will make you strong and give you the familiarity with gear placements and such so that pushing one grade higher will feel like no big deal. Clipping bolts in an effort to gain facility with trad gear is like playing tennis in order to get ready for a swim meet. My $0.03.

[Dru]

DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!

[pope]

Peter_Puget said:

pope said:

Peter_Puget said:

pope said:

Peter (yawn), Dick Cilley told me that he's never placed a protection bolt, and he spent many hours at camp in Joshua Tree one night about ten years ago dressing down bolt-clippin' assholes like you.

 

Now just when did I say anything about placing bolts with Dick.

 

At least try to be more responsive to what was actually said.

 

I am glad your one evening with Dick was so memorable. See you do have a thing for the climbing legends of Washington! I thought you did protest too much.

 

PP

 

I hate injecting comments like this but Pope's response is so all over the place that I will.

 

After reminding us that you and Richard are practically best friends, you then stated that his only complaints about sport climbs are directed toward those which do not end on ledges. Then you informed us that Richard has parallel disapproval of crack routes that end similarly. Did I read correctly?

 

Well kind of here is what I actually said:

"Pope's comments are as usual full of vitriol and goofiness. Why he quotes Dick I am not sure but I can say that I have spent many hours bouldering and climbing sport routes with Dick. His main whine about sport routes is that many end in space rather than at a ledge/stance. To him this is a bogus route. The same would hold true to a crack which ended at a blank section." I wrote we went sport climbing and your characterizing this as "reminding us that we are best of friends" is simply not true. This alone makes your restatement inaacurate. But a greater inacuracy come from this coment of yours: "you then stated that his only complaints about sport climbs are directed toward those which do not end on ledges." WHat I actually said was:"His main whine about sport routes is that many end in space rather than at a ledge/stance." There is a distinct difference. If I was the kind to view humans negatively I would think such errors were made with malice but since I do not I will assume it was an honest mistake.

 

snipped away some BS here

 

Anyway beside misrepresenting what I wrote your post is entirely consistant with what I said. Dick and I have climbed many sport routes. To find over engineered and squeezed in routes not as attractive as those less engineered and spread out is I would think a fairly common reaction and does not equate with hating all sport routes.

 

 

Another thing that was memorable was when Richard kept returning to our camp fire night after night, stating that we were the most entertaining group in Hidden Valley.

 

you're so precious Pope

 

 

 

PP

 

Main whine/only complaint. God, this distinction is just enormous now, isn't it? But isn't that a classic PP tactic? When you're eating your liver, when your so full of your own horse manure that your eyes are turning brown, reach for anything you can, Peter! The spirit and intent of your drivel was to get your audience (Christ, look at them all) to believe that Dick doesn't object to the application of bolting as it is currently practiced at the majority of sport cliffs. My conversations with Dick left me to believe otherwise.

 

Sweet dreams.