Rodchester Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 Actually, Seuryncks in his rebuttal denies that his bolts were that close to gear placements, but doesn't elaborate. "All of the bolts were not placed next to obvious gear placements, as you suggested." JT didn't chop all the bolts either, just the ones next to obvious placements. And the ones next to obvious gear placements should be chopped. I thought our friendly neighborhood bolt chopper was right on target. My god it's a 5.8? I mean come on. If you can't climb it stay off it. How low on the YDS scale do we go to "make hard climbs easier" We need a bolt chop icon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodchester Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 Hey Lummox...what happened to that nice rack you had? I miss it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 I don't think that the YDS rating is relevant at all. What is relevant is that the fellow who bolted the route was not experienced enough to do the job right without extensively consulting with other area climbers. He just assumed what he was doing was right. I think that in his mind he was developing a safe route for the beginner to intermediate climber, of which there are not enough available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Attitude Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 catbirdseat said: I don't think that the YDS rating is relevant at all. What is relevant is that the fellow who bolted the route was not experienced enough to do the job right without extensively consulting with other area climbers. He just assumed what he was doing was right. I think that in his mind he was developing a safe route for the beginner to intermediate climber, of which there are not enough available. Or to summarize.... .... trad is dangerous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chirp Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 I have seen too many bad bolt jobs in pristine locales. Bolting next to gear is one thing but bolting a formation just to do it is bunk, especially if you do a sloppy ass job. Theres this 30 foot flake/arch deal in the Kolob section of Zion, the first bit is rotting flake to a neat looking arch on bright orange rock with black streaks. A physically beautiful formation...some dolt needed to climb it and now this section is affixed with studs, wires, a drilled angle and rotting slings. Looks like crap. Granted, its a "route" but it might go naturally or it might not, depending on the individual. Have the balls and do it right in the first place is my feeling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwayner Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 Interesting Article! A few comments. Whether to bolt or not is a smoldering question in rock climbing these days as the sport comes to grips with growing popularity. Once the domain of a scruffy few who embraced an ethic of self-reliance, conservationism and risk, rock climbing is being overrun by a new generation less connected to its daring past. The result: a culture clash on the rocks. Dwayner say: "less connected" is a fine choice of words. I would suggest that there are many who have no idea that bolts are controversial or have a grasp of other ethical issues. (There are certainly some exceptions, including a few younger folk I've met with cc.com) "Everywhere there's a cliff, you'll find some bolted routes," Mr. Seurynck says. Dwayner opines: So what. Just because "everybody's doin' it" doesn't necessarily means it's appropriate. With at least 450,000 regulars now on the rocks in the U.S., up from about 200,000 a decade ago, land managers fear that bolting is getting out of hand. "All of them are looking to prevent a proliferation," says Randy Coffman, a National Parks Service official. Dwayner observes: 450,000!!! Dang! That's big business! Lure them into the gym, give them their 10 minute sport-climbing education and SELL THEM CRAP!!! But a minority of climbers, including some big names in the sport, believe restrictions are needed. The antibolters echo the position of environmental groups that say permanent bolts degrade rock, look bad and allow climbers to disturb raptor nests. Dwayner elaborates: Them "big names" include Dwayner and pope (ain't that right, pope!), although we prefer that the bolt-monkeys restrain themselves rather than have the government involved. And quit bolting next to cracks! Last September, the bolt question nearly derailed a summit of some of the world's best climbers who assembled in Innsbruck, Austria, to write a climbing code of conduct for the International Mountaineering and Climbing Federation. The fiercely probolt Swiss delegation -- from a country where rock climbing is promoted as safe, tourist-friendly "vertical hiking" -- threatened a walkout if the group adopted an antibolt position. Dwayner comments: Other safe, tourist-friendly, Swiss activities including: yodeling, eating chocolate, buying a watch and blowing the alphorn. Now, a prominent German climber, Alexander Huber, is soliciting support for an expedition to unbolt a route put up last year by an international group on El Gigante, a 2,500-foot cliff in Basaseachic National Park, Mexico. The route's name, "Logical Progression," particularly annoys traditionalists. Dwayner ask: Should be called "Thoughtless Regression." Is there a place where we can send Mr. Huber some money? "They see us as the old guys who are going to die, and they are the new generation, and they call their style the new style," the 35-year-old Mr. Huber says. Dwayner notes: "old guys who are going to die" includes a 35-year old hardman! But Luke Laeser, 29, who spent two months last year affixing the route's 380 bolts, says the route is just too dangerous without bolts. "We knew some people wouldn't agree with it," he says. "But there's not one way to do things." Dwayner contends: Too dangerous? Then stay off it. Come back when you're up for the challenge and don't forget to wear a helmet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micajones Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 Three hundred and eighty? Holy Hilti Batman! Chop them fuckers now!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EWolfe Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 It seems Jonathan has not done anything too outlandish (this time) - chopping bolts next to protectable cracks? OK by me! I guess the lesson is, if you are going to be in a position of high visibility and you have "outsider" climbing tendancies, you had better: A. Make sure it pays enough for you to curtail those tendancies during your hi-vis tenure, B. Not admit to them, or C. Get your work sprayed all over the media (read: negative sells) You are on these kind of jobs 24/7, something to consider. Gotta have the politic, or you go down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gapertimmy Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 my real question is: did JT try to burn said pulled bolts once he got on top of the route????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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