What Ice Screws work best?

[daisy]

I have been doing some research and decided I want to climb in Canada in the next month or so, when not investigating Banks Lake or other spots out east here. I am not very experienced and don't have any ice protection. What kind of ice screws work best? I could use some feedback.

Thank you,Daisy

[DPS]

Black Diamond Express screws are widely regarded as the best around. 17 cm seem to be the most usefull length. Having one or two shortys (13 cm or 10 cm) for thin ice and a long one (22 cm) for V-threads and belays are also nice to have.

I have used Grivel and Smileys as well as Black Diamond and found them to be decent screws but not as nice as Black Diamonds. (The finish on my Grivel chipped and corroded quickly). The BD Express screws were much easier to place than any other in cold, hard Alaskan ice.

[chuckie]

Second the motion on the BD Express screws. Price can be a drawbck, but you can always get some cheaper screws for belays and easier going and save the BD's for the western bits.

[Terminal_Gravity]

Get all 22 cm BD express. You can always tie them off. No reason to screw around with different sizes. IMO

BTW if you want a 17 BD non express I have one for sale.

[JayB]

Just to confuse things a little I'll cast my vote for the Grivel 360 screw. Here's why:

1. Less prep before placing the screw. When placing a BD screw one has to clean a circle 4" in diameter in order to crank the screw in all the way to the hanger. The Grivel screw can be placed in grooves, depressions, corners, and what have you with minimal cleaning, sometimes none at all. The harder the climbing gets (for me) the more important rapid placement becomes.

2. The longer handle provides greater leverage. If I remember correctly the force which one can apply by means of a lever increases with the square of the length of the lever. In hard ice I've found that the leverage provided by the longer lever makes it much easier to crank the screw in. Especially helpful when the only good ice is not adjacent to your waist and you don't have much leverage to begin with.

3. They've always cleaned more easily.

4. The threads. The threads on a Grivel screw have a reverse orientation that directs the force into the ice rather than outwards to the surface. How much difference does this make in practice - not sure but I'll take any advantage I can get.

5. The knob on the Grivel screws doesn't rip up my gloves like the knob on the Express screws.

6. Racking - it's not pretty but it works. I use a BD Ice-Clipper and have never encountered any problems - I can get them off of my rack and into my hand just as easily as I can with an Express screw. Not a significant downside in comparison to all of the other advantages IMHO.

That's why I like the screws - but I'd be interested in hearing other's opinions. Why don't you like 'em. Also - I'll be flying out to Seattle this Sunday, and will happily trade my BD express screws (22cm) for 22cm 360s if they are in comparable condition (the BD's are more or less in mint condition).

Also, with regard to tying off long screws vs placing short screws, I've seen studies that indicate that when tied off screws are placed under a heavy load, the ice below the screw shatters and/or the screw begings to bend downwards, and then the tie-off slides down to the end of the screw, which drastically increases the force on the portion of the screw which remains in the ice by means of the lever-effect and thus increases the odds of the screw failing.No disrespect to TG - I'd just be curious to hear what you think of the above scenario and/or what you've observed in practice when placing tied off screws.

[Retrosaurus]

quote:

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Originally posted by Terminal Gravity:

Get all 22 cm BD express. You can always tie them off. No reason to screw around with different sizes.

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Not true.

Tied off screws when tested to failure, lever down through the ice to below the horizontal, the tie-off sling slides down the tube and cuts on the hangar.

(Of course, if you don't fall it's all academic.)

[Rodchester]

BD Express...hands down. I will never buy another type again.

Grivel 360 are decent but the machining on them is only mediocre, when compared to BD. No screw places as smoothly as a BD.

Smileys actually are really good for the money. The are very well machined and place very easily and are priced to sell. The little "turn knob" is not very good and they do come off, no matter what the store says...they do...trust me they do.

[ 12-20-2001: Message edited by: Rodchester ]

[Dru]

1) I 'ave heard (from un-named gear store that returned all theirs but is worried about lawsuits) that the Smiley's/Omega knob, because it doesn't fold away, can open the gate on your biner...

2) another vote for not tying off. 22's suck. I only have one 22, for making Abalakovs in funky ice. 17s are bomber for most placements and for thin west coast dribbles over granite slabs you may want "a bunch of" 13s and 10s too.

3) Charlet screws are nice but the Turbine is kinda kluged. I wish they made a screw with the knob right on it.

4) BD Express works great.Grivel 360 has advantages but no one can tell me about long term durability of the wire crank. if your scrw gets frozen in on super cold ice it looks to me like you might bend the wire torquing on it getting the 360 out...?? hope not.

5) worth carrying a Snarg, spectre, DMM ice-hook or two for west coast type mungy frozen mud in cracks. it aint great but its better than no piece at all, cause it MIGHT hold a fall.

[Rafael_H]

quote:

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Originally posted by JayB:

... Also - I'll be flying out to Seattle this Sunday, and will happily trade my BD express screws (22cm) for 22cm 360s if they are in comparable condition (the BD's are more or less in mint condition)....

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I have a 17cm 360 with that racking sleeve in a mint(!!!) condition. Want to trade for a BD Express 17 or shorter in the same condition?

[ 12-20-2001: Message edited by: Rafael H ]

[JayB]

Rafael:

I'd love to trade you but the only Express screws that I have are 22's....

[Rafael_H]

Thanks, Jay,

that's a pity. I have too many 22's and need more shortys. Alas...

Happy climbing!

[ 12-20-2001: Message edited by: Rafael H ]

[Rafael_H]

quote:

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Originally posted by JayB:

1. Less prep before placing the screw. When placing a BD screw one has to clean a circle 4" in diameter in order to crank the screw in all the way to the hanger...

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I have to pass on the beta I got: when placing a BD or similar screw it is possible to hit the lever with a hammer to pass through minor bulges instead of cleaning them. I tried and it works well.