Insomnia and my biggest gripe

[Terminal_Gravity]

'second night in a row that I couldn't sleep. So, today I got an alpine start at work but it's too dark in the shop, the beer is all happy and needs no attention and I can't stand the thought of paperwork.

Are you as bored already as I am? So...

Point A) I'm sure that we all loath the horrors that the Chinese government did to the people and culture of Tibet.

Point B) As mountaineers we hold Tibet dear and dream of things Hymalayan.

Point C) As good ole american consumers our biggest collective power is the BOYCOTT.

So, my biggest gripe....

Why the hell do so many high end mountaineering gear companies make things in China? And, why do we buy them?

[ 12-19-2001: Message edited by: Terminal Gravity ]

[cj001f]

Are you as bored already as I am? So...

I'm at work - nuf said...

Why the hell do so many high end mountaineering gear companies make things in China?

The same reason Ralph Lauren (nee Ralph Lifschitz) makes shirts in Mauritius - cut the costs of goods to pay for the advertising. What also goes unsaid here is that there is a rapidly shrinking pool of competent sewing labor in this country - part of the reason why Lotus Designs and Granite Gear located their production facilities in rural depressed areas is this is where they could find good find skilled seamstresses. How many women do you know that know how to sew? Of course I'd venture to say the move to China is more driven by base economics - they have a fixed price, they can't cut the ad budget, they can't cut the materials budget, but they can cut labor. And, why do we buy them?

I'm not quite sure the source for the addiction - but I definitely have one. Maybe I should go talk to Mr Durden.....

[allthumbs]

I get on my high horse now and then and refuse to buy Chinese or Mexican made. It lasts about 2 days, then I'm back to my lazy ways. I will say this about a lot of American Made products, especially clothes. The US made stuff always seems to have left over strings and shit all over the place. Zippers are sewn in crooked and seams are not always straight. So do I buy Chinese and get quality, or American and get whatever?

[Terminal_Gravity]

cj001f - thanks for the reply, and clearly economics dictate having things sewn in places with cheap labor.

That being said, I gotta call bullshit. China has the biggest labor pool. But their are several other countries with equally cheap and skilled labor. What it would take is for gear companies to make a policy of not dealing with China. For that to happen they would have to find value in doing so. That's where we as consumers come in.

If a bunch of us wrote Marmot or any of the others and even said that we would be more likely to by a piece of clothing that was made anywhere but China, they would listen. And really all you need is one major company to become aware of a consumer concern and the others will be forced to follow. Also, when you purchase something mail order ask if it is made in China if they don't tell you in the catalog. (Sierra Trading Post does) If a big customer like MGear started asking the Manufactures about origin, they would listen. Sooner or later, the manufacturs would start advertising "China Free" clothing.

[allthumbs]

TG

I think you're dreamin'. Unless you got all climbers from all states, and hikers, and general camper-types to sign a petition or something, Marmot and the other big guys will tell you to piss up a rope. They're in it strictly for the money. I'll bet it would take one hell of a boycott to change their corporate minds.

[Terminal_Gravity]

Yeah; Trask you are probably right.

Maybe I should be drinkin' instead of dreamin'

Alcohol is my life...climbing is my tonic and I've cried enough tears to wash dishes.

[ 12-19-2001: Message edited by: Terminal Gravity ]

[willstrickland]

I'll weigh in on the seamstress issue. My grandma worked as a seamstress for about 15 years sewing London Fog trench coats among others. The labor force where she worked was primarily older women when she began working there, average age was probably 55. During the 80's and up until she retired in '94, the work force began to shift toward young to middle age asian immigrants with some mexican immigrants. In '94 the work force was probably 60% asian women (primarily Vietnamese and Cambodian...although this had to do with the location of the plant more than anything else, it was located very near the Atlanta suburb of Chamblee, commonly called Chambodia these days by locals) 20% mexican women, and 20% elderly white and black women. So, I don't think it's an issue of asia having better seamstresses...our seamstresses are asian!

I think the accelerated pace of production these days is the primary culprit, it's hard to get it right when you're working at a frenzied pace.

[allthumbs]

Probably true, along with a downsized as well as overworked labor force.

[Dru]

the difference between a n american seamstress and a seamstress in china, is that the chinese gets paid about 50 cents a day. the indonesian would make 10c. and half that "made in USA" stuff is made in Guam or some only nominally american dependency somewhere.

the only way you will solve that problem is eliminating the wage disparity between the first and third world and that wil ltake more than just boycotting the products from one or more countries.

and TG, for insomnia, try Kava Kava. melatonin works but i think it can fuck up your biorhythm/circadian cycle in the long run.

[cj001f]

That being said, I gotta call bullshit. China has the biggest labor pool. But their are several other countries with equally cheap and skilled labor.

Your half right on that one - there are other cheap countries. But at least according to an article I read recently (WSJ??) what we would consider equally cheap isn't so. i.e. companies actually find that 1 cent difference between the Phillipines and China, or the Philipines and Vietnam to be signifigant(this was for low end stuff like jeans)

As for made in the USA having bad quality -bull****. Quality is solely a function of the companies standards. If your willing to pay extra for quality gear, you'll get quality. My older Made in USA Patagucci gear is just as good as the current stuff - their may be a shrinking US workforce, but I bet it's still available, particlularly if you were willing to train personnel - there are a lot of rural areas with high unemployment.

As for eliminating the China problem. I'm not sure if a boycott would be instantly effective, but getting companies to acknowledge the source of their goods (this may be slightly difficult for large producers as they may have multiple sources) Raising the China issue to the attention of Marmot, Patagonia, would be a start. As for boycotting - I'm trying to get rid of my crap as we speak, and I don't see many purchases in the future.

Carl

[Dru]

on the issue of sewing skills - a large portion of the Vancouver based garment manufacturing industry including Arcteryx, is composed of recent immigrants, doing the sewing.

seeing that Arcteryx uis expanding so fast that they would hire Zebu the monkey if he could sew, im sure they are not discriminating against native born canadians in their hiring practices, more like 1) many native Cdns dont really know how to sew that well, we just buy new jeans when our old ones get worn out

2) those born-in Canada Cdns that do know how to sew are probably not looking for work, they are like my grandma, sitting around home making quilts and jam to give out as Xmas presents.

It kinda sucks though, you have a doctorate from Jakarta University, no one in Canada will hire you based on that, but you can make $20 an hour sewing fleece. then again I spent a year after i got my m.sc. belaying kids in a climbing gym, and I only made $8 an hour doing that.

[Dwayner]

Brother Dru: I wouldn't usually bark in on a discussion like this, but I'm tired of hearing the wage disparity argument. I worked in Egypt for a good long time and hired lots of local people from the villages as labor. They made the equivalent of about $3 per day. It was the going rate and they were grateful. When we hired people, there were far more people willing and wanting to work than we needed or could afford on our budget. The fact is, it's a heck of a lot cheaper to live there, although nowhere close to American standards. If I paid them even American minimum wage it would have disrupted their local economy; I would have only been able to afford to hire only a fraction of the number who wanted to work; and it would have made it difficult for those who followed in my path who probably wouldn't be able to hire more than a few. The fact is, it is cheaper to make many things abroad. If you want to support often extorniate union wages to have your stuff made here, you can pay $200 for your pair of shoes. I prefer American-made if it's affordable and well-made, otherwise, I say share the wealth because there are lots of people in this world who appreciate the money. I am, however, concerned how those people treat their employees or citizens. But, when you boycott China, you very well might be putting a lot of good people out of work who are just trying to make a living. ("But it's for their own good!" - B.S. - tell that to someone with a large family to feed.)

(And I ain't interested in a pissing match about unions.)

[Alex]

Consumers speak with their wallets, not their values. Patagonia and a few other select companies are the only ones to ever have successfully married the two.

IMO Tibet will be free when the Chinese stop believing it was a historical part of China, or when the Tibetan people revolt, whichever comes first (read, never). But pressuring the Chinese won't get the U.S. anywhere. I think China has always been a question mark for the U.S. foreign and economic poilicy..you look at the market and you cannot ignore it. You look at the government and you cannot ignore it, and yet you are pretty powerless to do anything.

This is always an interesting question: support a culture in the hopes that it becomes more like your own, and "sees the light", or punish a culture in the hopes that the economic and social hurt inflicted forces action? Which is more likely to succeed? Which is more likely to succeed in your own lifetime?

Americans have a short attention span, and that goes for government and leaders of this country as well as the everyday Joe couch potato.

13 posts already and not a hint of the downward spiral into mindless spray chaos? And with people like trask and Dru already weighed in? I am shocked. Shocked.

Alex

[cj001f]

Dwayner - you've made a good point. The problem isn't with them paying a substandard wage to overseas workers, your right usually they pay market, or better than market there. The problem is constantly moving production to the place with the lowest wage (i.e moving from the Philipines to mainland China). For High End Goretex - a labor change shouldn't save you that much money.

I think for the labor issue - Dru's got it covered - there just aren't that many people willing, or skilled to work in the Grament industry, the pay is low(see the following link) and the work conditions aren't good. And Dwayner don't bash the Unions only 8.5% of the U.S garment industry is unionized - I got that from here http://www.bls.gov/oco/cg/pdf/cgs007.pdf.

Carl

[Dru]

Bro Dwayner - I dont think you read my argument or maybe i didnt come across clearly enough. i dont disagree with you. paying 3rd world employees in a sweatshop American minimum wage is not gonna solve anything. the WHOLE COUNTRY income scale & expenses has got to increase so it is comparable to 1st world. (or at least comparable in the way that EU and N Am are comparable even though Barabee's is damn sight cheaper than REI and so is MEC).

but if those employees want to make more coin they pretty much have to unionize cause it is unlikely that the corporations are going to give them more wages purely out of altruism. and the union has to go international and across board or else corp. will move to another country or bring in scabs. and the ability of a union to do that is pretty unlikely.

on the subject of gear quality - , i have found. that said the difference between brand x and brand y gear usually comes down to design, materials and quality checking. so you get cheap gear that is made of cheap nylon, and full of flaws, or you get expensive gear made well and well checked. (ideally you want cheap but well made gear but they always end up putting their prices up because consumers think if its cheap it must be crap). country of origin doesnt come into it as much if materials, design and qual checking are equal.

[allthumbs]

quote:

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Originally posted by cj001f:

That being said, I gotta call bullshit. China has the biggest labor pool. But their are several other countries with equally cheap and skilled labor. I'm trying to get rid of my crap as we speak, and I don't see many purchases in the future.

Carl

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__________

Curious...why are you getting rid of crap? You leaving the country or something?

[allthumbs]

Dosen't Feathered Friends make their stuff here in Seattle? And at Filson, hell you can stand at the checkout counter and watch the asians sewing away like mad. It's a humbling scene.

[Beck]

I think FF and Filson are corraborating on an 8000 Meter Tin Cloth 700 fill power parka. All made in the USA but I don't know about the down source.

[David_Parker]

The issue is who gets the money. The problem is both social and economic. There's a big gap between the amount the person sewing makes a year and the person buying it makes a year. There's also a bigger gap in the amount of consumption of the worlds natural resources by the laboror and the consumer. The Rich consume luxery items, the poor try to subsist. The economics dictate that the social situation includes a class system. It's in the garment industry and many more. There will always be rich, moddle and poor and we all try to fit in the best we can. We (as a western nation) have a hard time understanding the true difference between ourselves and lower classes. We want their products, give them employment, teach them democracy, demonstrate capitalism, pay them their market value for labor but don't really know what it's like to be in their shoes...(or lack thereof) while they make ours. The poor will always resent the rich and as long as we all wear Patagucci, Marmot, TNF, Arcteryx, Salomon, REI, LL Bean, whatever, we will be percieved as rich to them. Some of this resentment runs deep, very deep, and people in this world hate that extravagance. So I come to the same place I come to every time when I try to reduce the garment gripe, the gas price gripe, the flying airplanes into buildings gripe, any thing economic or social that causes world strife....and that is all these problems , the nuts and bolts of it all, is caused by one problem. Fix it and many others go away. The base problem is the unequal distribution of wealth. The exacerbator is the different ways different religions view this wealth discrepancy.

Theres a bumper sticker I like and wish I were better at: "Live simply so others may simply live." To do that you have to: "Eschew the dominant paradigm." Are you willing to change your life and step out of the box? What can you do to bridge the gap between rich and poor?

[cj001f]

quote:

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Originally posted by trask:

__________

Curious...why are you getting rid of crap? You leaving the country or something?

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No, not fleeing the country - though I know a couple I'd like to run too. Mostly I just have too much climbing/skiing/backpacking stuff so I'm parting it out to friends and family. I discovered I don't need 5 pairs of ski poles - of course having just said this, I bought a new pair of skins yesterday.

Carl