Tickets at Stuart lake trail head

[Attitude]

A fine

[512dude]

I have researched this rather extensively and there are groups out there trying to get this fee demonstration program tossed out on its ass. It seems that this all started when the Fed's started looking at ways to trim the budget for public lands because WE (the gov't) were spending way too much of OUR protecting OUR public lands and not generating enough ca$h from them. You can find original copies of letters on the net going between politicians discussing how we should privatise public lands. You see, your tax dollars are already funding the protection and maintenance of public lands. It just seems that public lands are falling out of favor for funding. But the more one looks into the matter, it doesn't seem to be the case. Misappropriation of our money is more like the issue. How about these expenditures:

 

•At a National Recreation Area, one

famous outhouse cost $333,000. It has a gabled slate

roof, cottage-style porches, and a tapered cobblestone

masonry foundation in the fashion of Frank Lloyd

Wright. But the doors are locked in the winter because

this self-composting toilet won’t work in Pennsylvania’s

freezing temperatures. And don’t expect any running

water; there is none (Salt Lake Tribune, October 8,

1997).

 

• In 1997 in Yosemite National Park the average cost of

new employee housing was $580,000 per unit—two to

four times the average rate for local housing. The new deluxe housing accommodates fewer than 60 of the park’s 5,000 employees; many still dwell in tent-cabins without running water.

 

Many more examples of how the gov't mismanages your money can be found. Even though our National Parks are raking in cash from visitors the gov't seems to be coming up short on cash. Yosemite National Park is restricting park entry on the busiest days. Since 1993, the park entrance has been closed several times each year due to gridlock in the valley. How much is each person paying to get in??? The Grand Canyon has become so congested that a public transportation system is planned. On an average summer day, 6,500 cars show up at the South Rim, but there are only 2,400 parking spaces. More fees to park more cars? Why not charge the users of these popular tourist traps.

 

An agreement made between the ARC (American Recreation Coalition - and go look up who the members of this coalition are since they support the fees you are paying) and the USDA explains that the purpose of the fee program is "in order to enhance outdoor recreation opportunities on Federal public lands."

 

Do you feel like your experience has been enhanced? Bigger parking lots for RVs, more trails for ORVs and less wilderness. Enhance this

 

Check out these sites: www.wildwilderness.org

 

and start to worry as one US Senator from Wyoming hasn't been able to extract his head out of his ass since joining the Cirque du Soleil

 

http://thomas.senate.gov/html/pr6082.html

 

An article that supports user fees but the same reasons that the author argues are reasons for fees are the exact reasons NOT to have fees.

http://www.perc.org/pdf/ps17.pdf

 

DO NOT GIVE UP - WRITE YOUR SENATOR

 

You may feel as effective as a fart in a tornado but its not the volume you put out but how strong it smells.

Edited June 23, 2003 by 512dude

[layton]

Thanks for taking the time to research that 512dude. I appreciate those links too.

[jja]

marylou said:

jja said:

Beck said:

i didn't park at the trailhead pass required parking area without a trail parks pass, you figure it out....

Actually I had a pass .. left it in the glove box, smart huh?

 

Aren't you even going to try to tell the truth and get out of paying the fine?

 

Fundamental character flaw of mine - laziness. I'd rather just bitch about it and pay the 50 bucks.

[ski_photomatt]

jja - call the number listed on the back. tell the person answering the phone you got one of the $50 tickets for not displaying a parking pass, but you have one and forgot to put it up. they will ask you to fax them a copy and throw out the fine. as easy as writing a check, addressing an envelope, buying a stamp and mailing it.

 

there are always places to park near a trailhead for free. one can park on the highway pullout a little ways down the hill from blue lake trailhead for example.

 

[marylou]

"•At a National Recreation Area, one

famous outhouse cost $333,000. It has a gabled slate

roof, cottage-style porches, and a tapered cobblestone

masonry foundation in the fashion of Frank Lloyd

Wright. But the doors are locked in the winter because

this self-composting toilet won’t work in Pennsylvania’s

freezing temperatures. And don’t expect any running

water; there is none (Salt Lake Tribune, October 8,

1997).

 

• In 1997 in Yosemite National Park the average cost of

new employee housing was $580,000 per unit—two to

four times the average rate for local housing. The new deluxe housing accommodates fewer than 60 of the park’s 5,000 employees; many still dwell in tent-cabins without running water.

 

Many more examples of how the gov't mismanages your money can be found. Even though our National Parks are raking in cash from visitors the gov't seems to be coming up short on cash. Yosemite National Park is restricting park entry on the busiest days. Since 1993, the park entrance has been closed several times each year due to gridlock in the valley. How much is each person paying to get in??? The Grand Canyon has become so congested that a public transportation system is planned. On an average summer day, 6,500 cars show up at the South Rim, but there are only 2,400 parking spaces. More fees to park more cars? Why not charge the users of these popular tourist traps. "

 

Not to play Devil's Advocate or anything, but does this take into account the fact that the NPS builds stuff to last nearly forever, and with little or no maintenance? These costs seem extraordinary to me too, but not knowing what it takes to build things to last this way, it could be reasonable...? Also if you don't want to see high quality structures in the NPs, maybe you should push for them to go to poor quality ugly structures. The NP architecture is unique, so much so that book have been written about it, but hey, it's your money!

 

And JJA... I bet you could get out of that ticket by taking 15 minutes to write a letter explaining circumstances and enclosing a copy of your pass...

[Sloth_Man]

This is my take on it:

 

$50 is a lot of money if you only go out once or twice so yeah I can see that being a problem.

 

But for me I use the pass a lot so if I go out 25 times a year it's two bucks a shot. Not really an issue compared to gas and food and gear expenses.

 

You know damn well the super yuppies aren't going to pay for shit. And if the right wingers get their way (which seems certain at this point) the only organizations getting government money will be large corporations and friends of people in high places, not trails and roads for hikers and climbers. So where will the money come from?

 

Cheap bastards!

 

I'll bet you spend more in a month on beer.

 

If you guys would get half as upset about the tax money that goes to line the pockets of the wealthy maybe we'd have something going here, but you're always mum on subjects like that.

 

Hell I wouldn't be surprised if half of you are from bellevue and driving up there in brand new SUV's. That's what you sound like anyway.

[vegetablebelay]

I'm sure someone here has said it before, but

 

BAAAAAAAAA BAAAAAAAAAAAAA BAAAAAAAAA

[Greg_W]

gapertimmy said:

i believe they can only ticket you if you are at your vehichle, otherwise they can't prove it was you driving the vehichle that day or something gay like that.

 

like e said, this is just asking you to kindly send a check in, but don't do it. they might actually log your non compliance into a databse somewhere but the forest service is way 1981 so i wouldn't count on it.

 

This is actually not true. I just had a conversation with the Intern in charge of this at the Spokane office of the District Attorney (or whomever). They CAN ticket the vehicle. They follow up with a "request to appear" notice, which you can do on your appointed court date, or just pay the $50. If you do not pay, it MAY lead to the swearing out of a bench warrant on your ass. This may mean nothing, however, I have too much at stake to risk these complications.

 

If there is no amount, just wait and see. You will most probably be contacted.

 

GReg W

[512dude]

>>"$50 is a lot of money if you only go out once or twice >>so yeah I can see that being a problem."

 

Its not the $50 - you obviously don't get it. Go get informed about the issue. It is double taxation for starters and then its the sell-off of what is suppossedly public land to the private interest groups. There is more going on here than a bunch of climbers whining about a few bucks (at least I think so).

 

 

>>You know damn well the super yuppies aren't going to >>pay for shit. And if the right wingers get their way

>>(which seems certain at this point) the only >>organizations getting government money will be large >>corporations and friends of people in high places, not >>trails and roads for hikers and climbers. So where will >>the money come from?

 

It'll come from suckers like you who don't mind the corporations lining there pockets because you have been forking over the $50 to show your support of their program.

 

 

[JoshK]

I'm curious what money do you guys think should be used to provide parking lots, roads, etc. that allow us to access these public lands. Taxes? User fees? etc?

[marylou]

Once again, playing Devil's Advocate here, do you also object to the double taxation of paying NP fees and other fees to federal attractions? I hate the way the parking pass deal is set up as much as the next person, but trailhead and trail maintenance does cost a boodle of $$. If you use the woods a lot, like most of the people here, I'm sure you are more than getting your money's worth in terms of gravel in the parking lots, privy maintenance, trail maintenance, what have you.

[Pencil_Pusher]

After driving back from yet another popular fee area without a ticket this weekend, it came to me. That 261.15 you were cited for, JJA, says nothing about the proper display of the parking pass. All it says is bad stuff about those who do not pay the required fee. Essentially the FS dude that wrote you that coupon is trying to incorporate his own interpretation (Failure to display park pass, whatever) into the 261.15 law. Otherwise the law would read something to the effect of: Failure to display a park pass will result in....

Forgetting to take the pass out of the glovebox is an affirmative defense as you did already pay the fine (the pass) and nowhere in 261.15 does it stipulate the display of such. It sounds like whomever posted about faxing in the park pass copy did so from experience...