epb Posted November 30, 2001 Share Posted November 30, 2001 Would it be possible to do a himilayan expedition, where the use of sherpas is the norm, without the use of sherpas? Such as on everest or k2. I mean are fresh potatos, pancakes, and cotton clothes for base camp really necessary? Couldn't we just suck it up and go freeze dried all the way, and stink for a month? Then carry the excess gear in stages while acclimitizing? [ 11-29-2001: Message edited by: epb ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted November 30, 2001 Share Posted November 30, 2001 Good question, it has been done, but it depends on what exactly you are talking about... First of all, you couldn't get to K2 with Sherpas, since most Sherpas live in Nepal or China. Second, you couldn't get to K2 without the Balti porters, you need camels just to cross the river. And they probably wouldn't let you through unless you paid them, so you might as well have them carry your stuff. If you are talking about porters:Not only would it be nearly imposible to cary all the supplies you would need for an expidition of that sort to basecamp. You would pay twice as much for everything if you didn't have a local negociator. Plus, the officials from the Minisrty of Tourism probably won't sign off on your climbing permit unless you have a camp cook, liason officer, and all of that. They expect you to hire locals. And finally, I don't think you could get out of Lukla without some 5'2 tough as hell Nepali dude running off down the trail with your bag on his head! One more thing, living up at altitude eats away at your body. If you don't have proper nurishment, ie. your eating freeze dried food, you won't be climbing anything. But then again you will be sick (stomach bugs) anyway, so you still probably won't climb anything! If you are talking about climbing "sherpas":Well, yes you can climb without them. But if you are on any sort of standard route in the Himalaya (which you probably will be if it is your first time over there-nothing wrong with that). Anyway, you will just be jugging up fixed lines that the "sherpas" put up anyway. So they wern't paid by you, whats the difference... You're not talking about the cascades here...lots of those big peaks can take a month just to approach! If you want to climb something big without the need for all the extra baggage, fees, and paperwork- head to South America! Also, don't forget...were not talking about used car salesmen who want to sell you a big SUV to take up to the ski area. The native people of Nepal are sooo awsome, kind, friendly, and willing to do what ever they can to make your stay in Nepal plesant. Their lively hood depends on the tourist industry, and what climbers pay them is merely chump change to us. All of your gear will be worth more than they might earn in a decade. I've thought about your question alot, and all though it sounds gnarly and hardcore to go over there and be self sufficient, its just not realistic. You will be a visitor in the Sherpa's land, and by trying manage without their help you might miss out on an opportunity to make wonderfull friendships. Just thinking about the sherpas we hired on our trip makes me want to go back just to visit them and see how they are doing. Times must be tough this year. [ 11-29-2001: Message edited by: Lambone ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epb Posted November 30, 2001 Author Share Posted November 30, 2001 It isn't a matter of climbing something big without permits and hassles. I lived in Nepali for 8 months and spent an additional year elsewhere in S. Asia. I never really thought much about it when I lived in Asia, but what I saw at Everest seemed to be ridiculous. I have climbed numberous routes in the himalyas. However, all the major expeditions always seemed to be overkill. I was just wondering if that assumption was right....or how much of the use of sherpas and porters is necessary on a climb like everest? [ 11-29-2001: Message edited by: epb ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted November 30, 2001 Share Posted November 30, 2001 Thats cool epb, I wasn't try to say that you don't know whats up...I was just rambeling! Damn, I wanna live in Nepal for 8 months! But I'm not sure if my stomach could handle it...and I like cheeseburgers! Your totaly right... What you see in Vertical Limit isn't that far from the truth-minus the Nitro I think satelite phones and all that bullshit take away from the experience. We were camped next to a team sponsered by Quoka (Mountain Zone .com), and it was a fuckin joke. Not only was their camp an eye sore, they were also total assholes to us. Our camp was supposedly "ghetto" because we didn't have a $2000 Mt Hardware circus dome with dishes sticking out of it... I thought we went about as light as we could, and we still had about eight big bags of shit(for 5 people). However, the fact is (at least on the normal route) that Sherpas do most of the hard work on Everest before westerners even show up to basecamp. Sounds like most of the trekking peaks are pretty easy to do unsupported. I think thats what I'd like to do next time. But I will still hire Chappa for a couple of hundred bucks. He's got lots of kids to feed. He's funny as all hell, and he makes a mean Dahl Bhat! [ 11-29-2001: Message edited by: Lambone ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epb Posted November 30, 2001 Author Share Posted November 30, 2001 It's not about being "gnarly" and "hardcore." I just hate to make such a fuss about a climb. I agree the nepalise people are the friendliest people in the world. My question was posed more general at the waste that I saw on Everest. I'm not just talking about the physical garage that is ever present, but energy. So much energy by so many people, to get just a few guys up one mountain. How much of this waste is necessary to make the climb? That's all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epb Posted November 30, 2001 Author Share Posted November 30, 2001 Sorry...That last post was posted before I say your new one. Seems like you know exactly what I'm talking about. i.e. Team Quoka or whatever. That's what I saw as well. The whole base camp seemed to be full of team quokos. 2 meter domes tents and all. 8 bags for 5 though, doesn't seem to be that bad though...more like Ghetto fabulous,for Everest any way. [ 11-29-2001: Message edited by: epb ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted November 30, 2001 Share Posted November 30, 2001 I'm not tryin to argue with you epb, But I think it is more complicated than that. You have every right to go on a super light unsupported expidition. But I think that most of the big commercial teams hire lots of Sherpas because their proffesional guides are to busy with clients to do the real work on the mountain. It comes down to the cost of labor. Mountain Maddness or who-ever aint gunna pay three extra American guides to fix ropes when they can pay Sherpas pennies to do the same thing. Either way the ropes gotta get fixed, and the clients sure as hell ain't doin it! Plus, who the hell can afford to climb Everest with out corporate sponsorship and a team of twenty just to split the permit cost! [ 11-29-2001: Message edited by: Lambone ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted November 30, 2001 Share Posted November 30, 2001 quote: Originally posted by epb: Sorry...That last post was posted before I say your new one. Seems like you know exactly what I'm talking about. i.e. Team Quoka or whatever. That's what I saw as well. The whole base camp seemed to be full of team quokos. 2 meter domes tents and all. 8 bags for 5 though, doesn't seem to be that bad though...more like Ghetto fabulous,for Everest any way. [ 11-29-2001: Message edited by: epb ] It wasn't Everest...I wish. Maybe someday. [ 11-29-2001: Message edited by: Lambone ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epb Posted November 30, 2001 Author Share Posted November 30, 2001 I know your not arguing man. No worries. I was just looking for someone elses opinion, not an arguement. Hell, I probally will never climb everest or any 8,000 meter peak any way...and probally for no reason less than I'm too damn unstable to wait around for the permit to go through. You did though, and congrates on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epb Posted November 30, 2001 Author Share Posted November 30, 2001 [ 11-29-2001: Message edited by: epb ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted November 30, 2001 Share Posted November 30, 2001 I hear ya! We had to bribe the official with a $60 bottle of scotch for our permit! [ 11-29-2001: Message edited by: Lambone ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epb Posted November 30, 2001 Author Share Posted November 30, 2001 Yah I know that now. I'm a little slow with the keyboard. So once again I posted that before I read your newest post. I'm no good with these message boards. Oh well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted November 30, 2001 Share Posted November 30, 2001 Thanks for bringing up a good topic epb. We needed one around here. I'm sure tommorow the spray sluts will spew all over it. See ya! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan_e Posted November 30, 2001 Share Posted November 30, 2001 No spray here, yet... You guys both have good points and I agree with both of you on some level. My life goal used to be K2, but I will not cry if I never even climb over 20,000 feet. I don't know if I would want to deal with all of the crap (logistics) that comes with doing a 8000m peak. Of course I would not even consider going to Pakistan any time in the near future, sorry but no peak is worth being tortured in some prison! There is the Chinese side, but still. I still want to play in Alaska more anyway, plenty to do on Denali, Hunter, and others. I have to add this, perfect example of what I would never want to deal with, check out this site about a 2000 expedition to K2: http://classic.mountainzone.com/climbing/2000/k2/dispatches.html Read some of the "dispatches". Dan E. [ 11-30-2001: Message edited by: dan e ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chriss Posted November 30, 2001 Share Posted November 30, 2001 Wasn't there a guy that rode there on his bike, carried his own gear in and climbed Everest without O2?? And rode back home. chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted November 30, 2001 Share Posted November 30, 2001 How many Sherpas does it take to climb Sherpa Peak? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted November 30, 2001 Share Posted November 30, 2001 quote: Originally posted by chriss: Wasn't there a guy that rode there on his bike, carried his own gear in and climbed Everest without O2?? And rode back home. chris Goran Kropp - and he took a train through russia on the way home cheater! lets see a north american do that! no oxygen for the ocean crossing either. tim mcartney-snape did it first - he sailed his sailboat from australia to India then walked to everest from the beach, climbed it and sailed home. give money to sherpas & porters - support the local economy. in the Valley pay dirtbags to carry your haulbag to base of Half Dome for you. on Rainier hire dirtbags to kick steps to the summit for you! (DAN LARSON!!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimL Posted November 30, 2001 Share Posted November 30, 2001 I believe Goran Kropp rode his bike to Everest and climbed the mountain without support and then rode back with his girlfriend. He might of used some of the other expeditions fixed ropes and taken some food when offered in the latter stages of the trip, but that doesn't diminish the fact that he is bad ass. His book is really good. I think he also did K2 solo because the team he was with bagged out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chelle Posted December 3, 2001 Share Posted December 3, 2001 Alison Hargraves climbed Everest solo without oxygen from the North side in 1995. I believe that supplies are driven in to the base camp, which is more convenient access for a solo attempt than the Solo Khumbu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haireball Posted December 3, 2001 Share Posted December 3, 2001 While in most cases I applaud and practice the small-light-minimal-assistance expedition, I feel differently about Himalayan climbing. I have not climbed in the Himalaya, but have numerous close friends who regularly do. They return with stories of indigenous people who live on potatoes themselves, but import rice to serve to western climbers; of valleys deforested to provide cooking fires for western climbers too cheap/lazy to bring stove fuel for the approach marches, resulting in the natives having to burn dung for their own cooking fires because they have no modern stoves nor access to fuel for them...somehow, a few days wages seems small payment for the ecological debacle western alpinism has inflicted on the indigenous peoples of the Himalaya however - is unsupported climbing possible in the Himalaya? I doubt it. I used an airplane to ferry equipment to Denali and nearby peaks. I used gauchos (muleskinners) to ferry equipment to Aconcagua. While you oughtn't need climbing sherpas, you gotta get you and your gear & food from the airport to basecamp. Might as well pay up and enjoy the company... [ 12-03-2001: Message edited by: haireball ] [ 12-03-2001: Message edited by: haireball ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbb Posted December 4, 2001 Share Posted December 4, 2001 But doing something hard and big can be done unsupported. Look at the 1984 Polish-American Expd. to everest. They (mostly) climbed a hard new route and put the whole thing on for under 50K. It can be done, but I bet that hiring people to schlep your stuff to the Mtn. and then climbing it by yourselves would be the best option. (and the most likely considering we're not all Tom Brokaw or Quokka enabled)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtngrrrl Posted December 6, 2001 Share Posted December 6, 2001 in response to haireball, it is certainly easy enough to go to the himalaya without having the maximum impact. rice IS grown in nepal, all over the place. the standard "sherpa diet" is often dal bhat takari: lentils, rice and vege stew. you can refuse to use wood and pay someone to carry fuel and proper equipment instead. most groups do this anymore. furthermore, burning wood is a way of life to the nepali. plenty of people are collecting wood to burn in their own homes. you're at a cultural cross roads. we westerners dislike deforestation. but who are we to march into the nepali's back yard and tell them to stop cutting down the wood and making fires to cook their food and warm their homes? and i'm not talking about sherpas working with a climbing group, but about families who live in the hills. when we aren't in their backyards, what is the right answer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epb Posted December 6, 2001 Author Share Posted December 6, 2001 [ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: epb ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epb Posted December 6, 2001 Author Share Posted December 6, 2001 I just wanted to say....light weight unsupported expeditions not only equal minimal impact but less fuss. Minimal impact is important no doubt, but the less fuss is what I was looking for. I just want to climb as hard possible with the littlest amount of shit to deal with other than what the mountains have to offer. It's not about being hardcore or gnarly...the less responsibilies ann shit you have to deal with the easier and more enjoyable a trip/climb will be. So the orignal question I had still remains...how unsupported can major himayalan expedition be, how light can one go so to speak on an 8,000m+ mountain? [ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: epb ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted December 6, 2001 Share Posted December 6, 2001 For the most part I'd agree with mtngrrrl. There are a few major flaws in haireballs argument that I feel inclined to point out. Mostly cause I am bored, and partly cause this is an issue I am studying at the moment. For what its worth, these are my thoughts on the topic. First, the people of Nepal, and all of Asia for that matter eat a shit load of rice (if they can get it). Yes villages in the mountains import the rice from the lowlands, but it is still a major staple of their diet. Porters carry about 500 lbs at a time on their heads while hiking straight up eroding trails. They don’t believe in switchbacks over there. Second, the people of Nepal and India have been burning dung for hundreds-who knows- thousands of years, since cattle were domesticated. It is a major renewable fuel source, it burns long, hot, and it doesn’t smell as bad as you'd think. If you trek in Nepal your food will be cooked with it too. Finally, most climbers take kerosene gas as cooking fuel in base camp, and Iso-Butane for on the mountain. Within Sagamartha National Park, Lang-Tang, etc...collecting and burning wood is illegal for both tourists and native peoples, and punishable by major fines from the National Governments Park Service. These parks were set up with the help of foreign investment from western nations. The tourism industry was boosted as result of structural adjustment forced by the IMF and World Bank, etc...Not to mention the non-profit organizations such as the Hillary Foundation, and Doctors w/o Borders, who have set up schools and Hospitals throughout the Himalayan region. And so on and so forth... I guess my point is that yes, western influence has been somewhat detrimental to Nepal. But with out the tourism industry Nepalese economy would be in a world of hurt(as if it isn't anyway). Yes westerners have once again changed an ancient culture, but if its for better or worse is highly debatable. I'll tell you this 99% of the Nepalese people that I spoke with said that they would rather be in America, or something to that effect. The younger generation, primarily ones who are educated (that I spoke with) are very bitter that Nepal is not modernizing with the rest of the world, they are being left out of the loop with no means of escape. Deforestation is a very minor problem compared to the water and energy shortage that Nepal faces. Of course, the advertisers who right the Patagonia catalogue will always highlight the deforestation issue, because that is what most of the Granola eatin’, Retro Cardigan wearin' folks in the USA care about…esthetics. Good Topic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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