Tax Cut

[spew]

Save the Tax cut

I want my economy, social and health services, jobs, good roads, and most of all my free recreation on public lands back!

The pidly little amount they get from my check is nothing compared to what the fat cats are saveing.

If all the user groups would learn to share and unite we could be a major voting force!

[JoshK]

Haha...middle America is too dumb to realize this. Bushy can appease them by giving everybody a measly sum of money back, while at the same time further driving us into a deficit. This would be the stupidest tax cut in the history of this country.

[lummox]

“The hardest thing in the world to understand is the federal income tax.” So said Albert Einstein.

 

In 1988 the IRS seized the $10.35 from Garry Keffer's savings account. Keffer, who was 12 years old, took matters into his own hands. He wrote President Ronald Reagan, "I am now feeling distrustful of the United States due to my financial devastation.”

 

"The income tax has made liars out of more Americans than the game of golf.” Will Rogers, 1924

 

[Ursa_Eagle]

JoshK said:

Haha...middle America is too dumb to realize this. Bushy can appease them by giving everybody a measly sum of money back, while at the same time further driving us into a deficit. This would be the stupidest tax cut in the history of this country.

 

I don't know, it makes perfect sense to me. <j/k> Drive up the deficit, build up a huge war cost, and lower taxes. More money spent and less money coming in works itself out, right? Welcome to balancing the budget according to shrub.

 

[MtnGoat]

"The pidly little amount they get from my check is nothing compared to what the fat cats are saveing."

 

Then you'll take what you save and send it back to the IRS as a donation, right? You said you'd rather have it spent on all that stuff.

 

Likewise, if you own a car registered in WA, and saved money when the tab fees dropped, are you sending back the difference every year?

 

 

[JoshK]

MtnGoat, this has to be the most idiotic reasoning I've ever heard. THat WA car tab cut was the biggest load of crap ever. Tim Eyman managed to convince all the people with low cost cars that them saving a few bucks on tabs would be worth it, when in reality we all the real savings went to those of us with $40k cars who save $1000 a year or more on car tabs. The result is a fucked up state budget, mass transit cuts and even problems funding the road projects tim eyman loves so dearly.

 

We don't live with a donation based tax system. Claiming the the middle class is being hypocrites because they critisize the upper class saving so much then don't send in the extra few $$ they save is idiotic.

[MtnGoat]

"MtnGoat, this has to be the most idiotic reasoning I've ever heard."

 

Right. We have all kinds of people complaining about what they'd rather their money went to pay for, yet when that money is in their hands and they have the means to send it where they wish on their own initiative, without needing to wait for one single legislator to pass one single bill, to actually *ACT* in service of what they claim to believe without waiting for anyone else......suddenly, all the moral certainty is less important than keeping that money. Funny how that works.

 

"Tim Eyman managed to convince all the people with low cost cars that them saving a few bucks on tabs would be worth it, when in reality we all the real savings went to those of us with $40k cars who save $1000 a year or more on car tabs. "

 

Ever consider they figured that few bucks a year was worth it to them?

 

And if you think the taxes are too low now, as I said before, you can raise your own tax back up to where it was, every year, without waiting for one single legislator. The ball is in your hands on your actual commitment to what it "should" cost you to operate your car. If you feel you are not paying enough, we can see just how much you believe that by where that cash wind up. It's real simple to decide someone else doesn't pay enough. If it's different when it's you, well, that kind of tells it's own tale about the actual commitment to paying more, doesn't it?

 

"The result is a fucked up state budget, mass transit cuts and even problems funding the road projects tim eyman loves so dearly."

 

Seems to me what fucks up a state budget just as royally is too much spending.

 

"We don't live with a donation based tax system."

 

Didn't say we did. I said if you *really* feel all that stuff is more important than having that money in your pocket, then you are free to do whats more important with it.

 

"Claiming the the middle class is being hypocrites because they critisize the upper class saving so much then don't send in the extra few $$ they save is idiotic."

 

I disagree. When we have folks specifically telling us someone *elses* tax cuts are less important than what the complainer wants to see done, I'm merely pointing out the complainer has the chance to fund those programs themselves.

 

Wether or not the tax system itself is donation based does not mean individuals cannot send checks where ever they want, and if that extra money is actually, really less important than what they say they believe, they'll actually, really act on it. Claiming someone else doesn't "need" their tax rebate is hardly evidence of moral superiority or valid judgement. Sending in one *own* rebate to fund what they claim is better funded than their bank account, is only asking that person to live by their stated claims.

 

When push comes to shove, whats actually important to them shows in their actions. It costs them nothing to really value programs paid for with somone elses taxes. How much they actually value them is shown when they hold their tax rebate in their hands and it's the money *they* worked for they can send away.

 

 

Edited April 15, 2003 by MtnGoat

[JoshK]

It's why we have a government. Before we even begin to start arguing, let's just try to avoid it in the first place. I'm liberal, I believe in paying more taxes to fund a society with more social services and programs. I don't believe in the "everybody for himself and their needs" mentality. You seem to lean the other way, thinking we'd be better off if the government disappeared and we all looked out for our own. How about we just agree to disagree because I've experienced these conversations never go anywhere useful.

 

P.S. Tim Eyman is a fucking hypocritical jackass. He can go fuck himself as far as I'm concerned.

[MtnGoat]

"It's why we have a government."

 

We have a govt so you can complain people don't pay enough, and then you won't pay what you claim is enough, when the choice rests in your hands without relying on anyone else but you?

 

 

"I'm liberal, I believe in paying more taxes to fund a society with more social services and programs. "

 

And yet when you can pay what you did before, at levels you seem to be claiming were OK, you're to be saying you don't. It seems to me the reason you believe in the magic of taxes is it allows you to get someone else to pay them. What's so special about a bill from someone called "taxes"?

 

If you say you support $1000 tabs on your car, and you'll pay it, why don't you pay that extra $800 bucks or whatever now? You'll force yourself to pay by supporting a tax at the ballot box, but won't force yourself to pay when you can cut out the middleman and not wait for legislation? It's exactly the same at your end, since you claim you're supporting paying more, and if you do it, you don't have to wait to support those vital services.

 

What someone else is paying is irrelevant, you're telling me by extension you support you paying the former amount, but you don't seem to want to actually discretely *choose* to do it.

 

"I don't believe in the "everybody for himself and their needs" mentality. "

 

That's fine. I don't have a single problem with that. What is that extra money doing in your account if you don't believe in that mentality? What is it that frees you from the dictates of your own stated morality, when you're not being forced to pay?

 

"don'You seem to lean the other way, thinking we'd be better off if the government disappeared and we all looked out for our own. "

 

I don't believe that. I merely believe it's power should be severely limited. And I believe it's misused by people who want to spend other folks work on stuff they won't support on their own if they're not forced to.

 

Which is why I'm discussing this, tabs and the "extra" money you may now have in your account is an excellent example.

 

"How about we just agree to disagree because I've experienced these conversations never go anywhere useful."

 

I can go with that, but I'm still going to put my non useful two bits in, as you can see!

 

 

Edited April 15, 2003 by MtnGoat

[JoshK]

How is my $800 alone going to change a thing? The point is the joint funds of the many benifit the many, both directly and indirectly. What do you think they'd do if I just up and sent $800 to the WSDOT? They'd sent it back, in all reality, but more to the point, the base road construction projects, etc. on taxes, not on donations from individuals.

[MtnGoat]

"How is my $800 alone going to change a thing?"

 

It adds $800 bucks to their funds. And if every other person who claims, like you, that paying that money is better than having it in their pocket, actually pays and supports their stated morals, bingo, you have a lot more than one person paying. Of course this presupposes those who support paying more actually support it by choice. IF they do not, they scarcely have the moral upper hand justifying making others pay.

 

 

"The point is the joint funds of the many benifit the many, both directly and indirectly."

 

I know you believe that. That's great. Why aren't you happy with paying for what you believe and allowing others who don't agree to opt out?

 

"What do you think they'd do if I just up and sent $800 to the WSDOT?"

 

If you write donation on it, I'd bet they'd take it.

 

"They'd sent it back, in all reality, but more to the point, the base road construction projects, etc. on taxes, not on donations from individuals. "

 

As far as the taxes represent user fees directly related to the service being provided, this is something I don't have a problem with. A gas tax to fund roads is perfectly reasonable. A car tax tossed into the general fund, which is how it used to work, isn't, IMO.

[JoshK]

Oh, beleive me, I'd LOVE a big fat gas tax. That might discourage a bunch of the people we are talking about over on the "SUVs suck" thread.

 

So following your logic, why don't you send a few bucks to gary locke every time you fill up your car and ask him to add that to the transportation fund? Your logic flawed, mtngoat.

[AlpineK]

My main problem with conservatives is their total lack of compassion. It's always me me me. I've got mine and all the rest of you can fuck off.

 

Yes everyone hate's taxes. I've gotta send the treasury several tousand dollars this PM. If I wasn't forced to I wouldn't, but that doesn't mean I'm against government spending. I want everyone to pay their fair share. I'm not going to send them extra unless I know everyone else is too.

 

Car Tabs tax reduction gave everyone with an RV and a fancy Lexus a huge break, but the poor guy with a crappy old beater got no break.

 

And GW's tax breaks are all about padding the pocketbooks of the rich while making the middle class drop their pants and bend over.

[MtnGoat]

"So following your logic, why don't you send a few bucks to gary locke every time you fill up your car and ask him to add that to the transportation fund?"

 

Because I think what I pay is already fine, if not too high. I'm not the one supporting people sending in more, you are.

 

"Your logic flawed, mtngoat."

 

Why would I want to send in more when I don't support taking more in the first place?

 

 

[Dr_Flash_Amazing]

Good call, AK.

 

BOMB THE WHITEHOUSE!

 

KILL THE RICH!

 

FEED DONALD RUMSFELD TO THE POOR!

 

 

[JoshK]

I chose to not pay for our military, you jackass. SHould I have that right too? Are you a hermit? Where did you come up with this whacky ass view of how government should work. I will extend my same offer to you that I did to muffy; move to africa. You get exactly what you pay for there, and nobody is going to force you to pay *any* taxes. Of course, get ready to pay to protect yourself.

[Dr_Flash_Amazing]

JoshK said:

I chose to not pay for our military, you jackass. SHould I have that right too? Are you a hermit? Where did you come up with this whacky ass view of how government should work. I will extend my same offer to you that I did to muffy; move to africa. You get exactly what you pay for there, and nobody is going to force you to pay *any* taxes. Of course, get ready to pay to protect yourself.

 

Dude, please do not play the Republican game of "if you don't like America, move to ________". America is s'posed to be a place where you can complain about stuff, do something about it if you care to, and try to live how you wanna. Telling people that they can leave if they don't like it is .

 

BURN MORE SUVs!

[MtnGoat]

"My main problem with conservatives is their total lack of compassion. "

 

If you measure "compassion" by your willingness to make someone else pay, that's your problem. I measure it by someone's willingness to support what they say they believe with their *own* actions and cash.

 

I care about much of the same stuff you do, probably. I just don't see how making bob next door serve my social views makes me any more "compassionate".

 

"It's always me me me."

 

Yeah, nothing me me me about deciding you know what everyone else should pay to drive a car, pay to fill it up, who they should hire, or fire, or eat, or teach, or buy, or sell, based on your views of their actions, nothing me me me about implementing your social agenda for your reasons. Nope, no "me" there at all. right!

 

"If I wasn't forced to I wouldn't, but that doesn't mean I'm against government spending. "

 

Of course you're not, you just need to be forced to pay for what you say you support. That's not what I call actual support, personally.

 

"I'm not going to send them extra unless I know everyone else is too."

 

So what you say you believe in and support somehow depends on what someone else does? That's a mighty odd view of morality and "support". You may not be able to control what someone else does, but you are fully in charge of you acting on your morals.

 

"Car Tabs tax reduction gave everyone with an RV and a fancy Lexus a huge break, but the poor guy with a crappy old beater got no break."

 

You mean the people who paid more got more of a reduction... Exactly! Why should someone who pays less get more back than someone who pays more?

 

And GW's tax breaks are all about padding the pocketbooks of the rich while making the middle class drop their pants and bend over.

 

 

[MtnGoat]

"I chose to not pay for our military, you jackass. SHould I have that right too?"

 

Yup.

 

"Are you a hermit? Where did you come up with this whacky ass view of how government should work."

 

When did it become wacky to expect you to choose to pay for what you say you want to pay for in the first place?

 

 

[JoshK]

Dr_Flash_Amazing said:

JoshK said:

I chose to not pay for our military, you jackass. SHould I have that right too? Are you a hermit? Where did you come up with this whacky ass view of how government should work. I will extend my same offer to you that I did to muffy; move to africa. You get exactly what you pay for there, and nobody is going to force you to pay *any* taxes. Of course, get ready to pay to protect yourself.

 

Dude, please do not play the Republican game of "if you don't like America, move to ________". America is s'posed to be a place where you can complain about stuff, do something about it if you care to, and try to live how you wanna. Telling people that they can leave if they don't like it is .

 

BURN MORE SUVs!

 

Hey, I'm simply point out that a place exactly like mtngoat want's already exists. Hell, if my dream country existed, I would move there.

[JoshK]

MtnGoat said:

"I chose to not pay for our military, you jackass. SHould I have that right too?"

 

Yup.

 

"Are you a hermit? Where did you come up with this whacky ass view of how government should work."

 

When did it become wacky to expect you to choose to pay for what you say you want to pay for in the first place?

 

 

So, mtngoat, do you actually think we'd have a military if we had to pay for all of that shit out of the generosity of our own pockets? Again, there is a system of government that works exactly as you describe, it's call ANARCHY.

[MtnGoat]

"Hey, I'm simply point out that a place exactly like mtngoat want's already exists."

 

It does? Where? Your misunderstand of my position doesn't indicate you know what such a place is like. I've never ever made the claim govt isn't needed. That's merely your reaction to the idea that govt shouldn't be in a lot places it currently is. To liberals who vest so much in social control, the idea of less govt seems virtually inseparable from the idea of no govt.

[JoshK]

So, oh so wise mtngoat, since you are against forced spending for military, education, roads, social services, law enforcement, etc. please tell me what role the governemnt *should* have?

[Winter]

Aw crap, I thought MtnGoat had drifted away into the realm of the politically obscure and irrelevant, but here he is talking up the SUVs and a theory of volutary taxes.

 

Hey buddy, ever hear of the tragedy of the commons? Well there you have it. If everyone did the right thing we would all end up ahead, but since we can't all coordinate to do the right thing we do what's in our own immediate self-interest and lose out on the opportunity for common gain.

 

I don't personally give the government an extra $500 every year, because I know it won't do any good unless everyone else does it as well. It ain't some moral deficiency, its a practical view on government taxation policies. We need EVERYONE's $500 to make a real difference. MY $500 won't make a difference, but I will certainly participate if government, our representatives, make the decision that everyone collectively should kick in to balance our pathetic freaking budgets.

 

Why is it that the conservatives scream about fiscal responsibility and then cut taxes on the rick, spend $100 billion on the war and run up our national deficit? How the hell is that fiscally responsible? I call that fiscally fucked up.

[j_b]

Because I think what I pay is already fine, if not too high.

 

http://www.icta.org/projects/trans/rlprexsm.htm