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Dustin_B

Marmot's new "900-fill" down ???

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I gave up trying to compete long ago bigdrink.gif

 

ragin' winged snaf.gif of the alps

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Dear Sphinx,

Who is "andy kirkblahblah", what does he have to do with down, and why are you his agent? Sorry I didn't realize your soapbox isn't big enough for 2 voices... so let me get this right...you "read articles by people who know what they are talking about"...read the NY times lately...

Opinions and facts are a bit different...aren't reviews just someones opinions? Fact is 900 and 1000 fill down has been around longer than you have...

 

 

 

 

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Mr. Dragon, whoever you may be, Andy Kirkpatrick is one of Britain's best alpinists, who tends to write unbiased reviews. He also has a lot of connections to people in the outdoor industry, and hence I am much more likely to believe what he says/writes than what an overzealous sleeping bag rep spouts. I'm not his "agent", mr defensive, and never claimed to be. I read his reviews, and when possible I have checked his claims, and so far, all have been correct.

 

For that matter, why should I believe you? Perhaps you work at REI and need to impress potential customers with your brand new, $700 bag of "1100" fill down that weighs 1 lb and is rated at -50 degrees. Too bad that down is 700 fill, the bag is 4 pounds, and the rating is 20 degrees.

 

I'm skeptical of any manufacturer's claims, and those of reps spraying on internet message boards. Why should I believe you?

 

As for 1000 fill-power down, I call BS. 893umn.gif

 

Though your 893bud.gif is amusing, back up your claims.

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stepping back into some wierd ounce counting/ down spew quagmire.

 

Andy whosiswatsis hasn't done his research lately. For U.S. "industry standard" (which there isn't any down agency like FIS for sports)

the cylinder graduations for volume top out at 900 cu in. That's what a sample from EVERY 16 pounds of Marmot high fill down tests out at, both at Marmot's in house lab, and the independant testing house in Denver or Salt Lake or wherever it is.

 

it's true. empirical fact.

 

Is a three quarter zipper, no draft tube bag the way to go? you be the judge of that. but t

here's no arguing about marmot down

 

and, on a lighter note, i hear a competitor, Varmint Montane Werks, is teaming up with Barrabes and the other euro dealers to distribute a line of exclusive 1,600 fill power bags with eider down from emperor penguins- they will also make a line of clothes...

 

"so light, it's like wearing...nothing at all!"

look for a stephensons warmlite type catalog.

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penguin plucking is cruelty to animals

boycott the 1600 fill power penguin bags

think of the plucked penguins slowly freezing to death just so some fat american can have a cheap puffy bag that is 1 oz lighter. mushsmile.gif

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Chupdog said:

Death to Feathered Friends

 

dont let crapbolter hear you say that!

 

hahaha.gif

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Dru said:

penguin plucking is cruelty to animals

boycott the 1600 fill power penguin bags

think of the plucked penguins slowly freezing to death just so some fat american can have a cheap puffy bag that is 1 oz lighter. mushsmile.gif

This can't be true. Can it? Of course they would shoot them. They'd be endangered before you knew it.

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I am pleased to announce that Beck and Citizen Dragon are full of (penguin) shit. NO MORE CRUELTY TO PENGUINS! Crackbolter, on the other hand, is God.

 

Dru, your Quarks are so suck.

 

I rest my case. the_finger.gif

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Sphinx said:

I just read an article by Andy Kirkpatrick, who is the only guy I know of who writes unbiased articles on how climbing gear works in the real world.

 

Andy Kirkpatrick is an opinionated, self promoting, dyslexic, has been, bad toothed twit who Stevie Haston famously ridiculed after Kirkpatrick called himself one of UK's best alpine climbers then was witnessed flailing and pulling on gear on a E2 (10c) yellaf.gif

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And that would make you a brainless, snaffle-humping, pagetop seeking, arrogant, spew-master, busy spraying and sticking horsecock up your ass. Good thing you don't climb.

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Sphinx, I heard you got a job as the "before" in an ad promoting hemorhoid relief, care to comment?

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If you pull the HCL.gifout of your moon.gif your snaf.gifsmileysex5.gifing will be thumbs_up.gif. mushsmile.gif Now stop cry.gif and go bigdrink.gif. Oh, and go see your shrink.

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Admit it, you are getting aroused by the thought of those plucked penguins. NAKED under their feathers! Naked! smileysex5.gif

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penguin down is COMPLETELY waterproof

 

but you can still get the bag with a Gore Tex Dryloft shell if you are a gear geek wave.gif

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erik said:

Chupdog said:

Death to Feathered Friends

 

dont let crapbolter hear you say that!

 

hahaha.gif

 

Yeah, me too.

It is CRACK bolter. Bolt CRACKS not crap Eric. Bolt CRACKS!!! Crackbolter. Quit makin fun of me Eric. I can't help it you know, its a condition.

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Crackbolter said:

I can't help it you know, its a condition.

 

vaganitus??

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Kirkpatrick's articles are worth a read,and are available online, including a review of down bags. You may not agree with them but they're certainly full of ideas. He may not be "one of the UK's best Alpinists" but a winter ascent of No Siesta is a good start.

 

As explained to me by a friend in the outdoor industry who's opinion I value:

 

"Most manufacturers have a long lead time from prototype to final product and have to get specs out to distributors and dealers usually before the final product has been shipped. This means that the published weight is sometimes a best guess. In addition suppliers change during production meaning weights can change.

 

Changing the published specs is costly because they are reused/republished by catalogs etc. The last thing the marketing department wants is lots of different numbers out there for the same product. "

 

I'm not saying this is right, but it seems like that's the way it is.

 

In addition the current fashion for everyday climbers to count the onces is relatively new. Ten years ago very few would have complained about a few ounces either way on a bit of gear weighing a couple of pounds. In short, if you want a bag who's weight the manufacturer will guarentee to a 90+% certainty then you're going to have to pay big bucks for it. Try going into Feathered Friends and telling them your bag must weight exactly what the spec sheet says. Or you can use a set of scales and figure it out for yourself at no charge.

 

You can spend the time obsessing over gear or you can train harder. Which is going to get you up the mountain?

 

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Ade makes a good point about counting ounces.

 

I don't know if it has been covered or not, but to that I'll add a note that the highest fill power down may not be what you want. I don't know what his theory may be now, but as of a few years ago I remember a certain small-shop owner promoting some bags that contained FEATHERS in addition to the down, because they would help it hold loft when starting to get damp, dirty or beaten. My Feathered Friends down helios jacket, filled with some VERY LIGHT down that puffs up beautifully when fully dry and puffed up incredibly well when new, lost its original loft very quickly and goes limp when stuffed in and out of my pack every time I take a break on a ski trip (the super light fabric it is sewn of doesn't help with this issue). The same is true for my light weight down bag made of high fill-power down and a very light shell -- get the slightest moisture on it such as when sleeping in a damp or frosty tent or crawl inside with weat clothes on, and it flattens considerably. This issue was not nearly so great with prior down jackets and sleeping bags that I have had which were filled with down that was not quite so light and had a shell that was not quite so thin. (Yes, to compensate for the thin shell fabric I could always use a shell coat or a bivvy bag, but this would add more than the few extra ounces that would come from a slightly better shell on the coat or sleeping bag itself.) For the way I use these products, the measured loft in dry, clean, and new conditions is far from the actual loft I get in the field and an extra ounce or three of weight assciated with a more water resistent shell or some sturdier feathers might actually be a plus.

 

Lighter may not always equal better, but shave a few grams off the published weight of a product and lots of people will buy a pack or a sleeping bag or a carabiner based on that factor alone.

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Good points, Matt.

 

I've always had my bag overfilled... to compenstate for wear and tear... and those damp days when the ol'fart sack sucks up the moisuture (from me, snow and whatever).

 

Anyone had any luck using a lightweight synthetic bag as an overbag... over a down bag?

 

Someone posted something about making a quilt out of primaloft. I've been thinking to make a quilt too. Seems like if it was made for 2-3 people... for really cold weather--it might extend the range of some bags. Was thinking primaloft on the top half... and just nylon on the bottom half. Would help to contain some heat and keep some moisture off everyone when the frost starts melting in the AM. I imagine there'd have to be some kind of a connection of fabric or something... between the climbers (by the shoulders), so the quilt wouldn't slide down or wouldn't lose too much heat. Think that would work?

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Old man-

I have used a synthetic overbag over down. It works very well for winter camping, whether it be in a tent or snowcave -- the moisture mostly goes into the outer bag and your down stays quite dry (though you certainly don't need the extra warmth in a snowcave).

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