Jump to content
  • Announcements

    • olyclimber

      WELCOME TO THE CASCADECLIMBERS.COM FORUMS   02/03/18

      We have upgraded to new forum software as of late last year, and it makes everything here so much better!  It is now much easier to do pretty much anything, including write Trip Reports, sell gear, schedule climbing related events, and more. There is a new reputation system that allows for positive contributors to be recognized,  it is possible to tag content with identifiers, drag and drop in images, and it is much easier to embed multimedia content from Youtube, Vimeo, and more.  In all, the site is much more user friendly, bug free, and feature rich!   Whether you're a new user or a grizzled cascadeclimbers.com veteran, we think you'll love the new forums. Enjoy!
Sign in to follow this  
Dustin_B

Marmot's new "900-fill" down ???

Recommended Posts

That bag was 800 last year right? I was told a year ago that there were special bags out there with 900 to 1000+ because the down they were getting was so good. Was this person trying to blow sunshine up my ass, possibily.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's probably the same down others are marketing as 800. FF admits that their 800 fill down often tests at 900 or higher. I wonder if maybe Marmot is further breaking down the down and using the very very best for these bags?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JoshK said:

It's probably the same down others are marketing as 800. FF admits that their 800 fill down often tests at 900 or higher. I wonder if maybe Marmot is further breaking down the down and using the very very best for these bags?

It's highly likely marmot is breaking down the down and down the road the down will be broken down more than the down already is broken down. hmmmmm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ask them how they have their down tested. Depending on the season, I am sure that their 900 fill doesn't always test at 900 fill. Otherwise, TNF, FF, WM, IG, MH, SD, GL, EXPD and everyone else would have 900 fill as well.

 

Quoted from two outdoor industry corperate executives at the Outdoor Retailer Show in SLC this year, "Lying Bastards!"

 

One other thing, only goose down suppliers are able to seperate the good down from the bad. Marmot has no ability to seperate their down to obtain 900 fill.

 

 

Edited by Crackbolter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Crackbolter said:

outdoor industry corperate executives

 

There is such a thing?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jon said:

Crackbolter said:

outdoor industry corperate executives

 

There is such a thing?

sure, Viesters

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jon said:

Crackbolter said:

outdoor industry corperate executives

 

There is such a thing?

If cc.com goes corporate, does that make Jon an outdoor industry corporate executive?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm still waiting for the bags that are completely water proof, breathable, and weigh under 1lb.

 

That would be called a +60 degree F (+16 C) gore-tex shell.

 

However, I do have a TNF alpine climber's bag that weighs in at about 20 oz. It's rated to +35 F but with full alpine gear on I've stayed comfortable as low as I've needed to go.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Naw, those are the same bags as last year's 800 fill. Marmot has always claimed that their down was conservatively rated, so maybe they're getting it rated differently now. You cannot go any higher than 900 fill as down that light cannot bear the weight of ANY shell fabric. Also lighter the down, the more quickly it loses loft when moist. No good for steamy nights smileysex5.gif

 

Even with 800/900 fill, the ripstop they use on these bags is pretty wimpy. Yes, down lasts "forever", but the shell on those bags sure won't. Better off with 700 "standard", will last longer. fruit.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I bought the Helium (+15) last year and would also agree it's the same bag & down as this year. I haven't used my bag enough to know for sure, but it seems the lack of baffles has led to having a few cold spots here and there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just got a helium to replace an old synthetic lost-all-its-loft bag. Beats me if the 900 fill is hype or not, but the thing is way light, and compresses down to almost nothing.

 

I normally sleep fairly cool, so I'll see how warm it is this weekend.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jordop said:

Naw, those are the same bags as last year's 800 fill. Marmot has always claimed that their down was conservatively rated, so maybe they're getting it rated differently now. You cannot go any higher than 900 fill as down that light cannot bear the weight of ANY shell fabric. Also lighter the down, the more quickly it loses loft when moist. No good for steamy nights smileysex5.gif

 

Even with 800/900 fill, the ripstop they use on these bags is pretty wimpy. Yes, down lasts "forever", but the shell on those bags sure won't. Better off with 700 "standard", will last longer. fruit.gif

 

I think you are mistaken. The more loft from each ounce, the more air that can circulate through the down. Higher lofting down does not retain more water than lower lofting down.

 

Also, the lofting ability between 700 and 800 is the same. There is a test that has become a standard in the industry for measuring loft and it includes a pressure test. 800 fill is not "weaker" than 700 by any means. As far as your theory on 900 fill being the maximum level for down products, think again. As the food industries in China,the Middle East and Europe raise geese for food consumption they sell the down as a biproduct. Geese could threoretically be raised genetically for their goose down but it is very expensive to raise a bird for one purpose. There is a company in Oregon who raises roosters for the fly tying and flyfishing industry but each bird costs as much as $80 per skin. Overseas there are birds raised fo the same purpose but the quality and cost is much lower. More like $5 to $10 per skin.

 

So the question remains, is there 900 fill or 1000 fill available? Yes but the cost is much too expensive for the consumer market so the limit is at around 800 fill for the industry. Any company who claims to have a higher fill is selling the exact same down as everyone else but making false claims.

 

Everyone's down fill is conservatively rated because the suppliers can't guarantee a constant supply of the exact same fill power. The fill could barely make the 800 level in January but it exceeds 875 fill in August.

 

The bottom line, if Marmot isn't responsible for the 900 fill claim then you can blame their suppliers for falsifying their product.

Edited by Crackbolter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Crackbolter said:

The more loft from each ounce, the more air that can circulate through the down.

confused.gif

 

Down doesn't insulate, trapped, stagnant air does. More air circulation (convection heat transfer) means more heat loss. This is why we don't sleep on air mattresses. Nothing stops the air from circulating within the mattress. The foam in a Thermarest pad prevents convective heat transfer in the mattress.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, crackbolter, are you saying that my FF bag which I had made this past winter will, in fact, have slightly lower quality down than if I had waited until august to have it made?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
yelrotflmao.gifNo, he's saying that when it's cold, down is stiffer, so it has greater lofting ability, when it's hot, the down fibers relax, and don't loft as much. It's a moot point, cause when you need to be warm, eg it's cold out, then the down is warmest. When you are already warm, eg it's warm out, then the down isn't as warm. Temp control!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

dumb me. tongue.gif

 

OK, well, that's good to know. From reading the sentence I thought he meant that the geese which are farmed differ in the quality of down they produce throughout the year.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MysticNacho said:

I'm still waiting for the bags that are completely water proof, breathable, and weigh under 1lb. rockband.gif

Sleeping bags are aid.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The fill could barely make the 800 level in January but it exceeds 875 fill in August.

 

JoshK said:

So, crackbolter, are you saying that my FF bag which I had made this past winter will, in fact, have slightly lower quality down than if I had waited until august to have it made?

 

Nah, it looks like he's just using an example. It would be interesting to find out if there are certain times of the year when the down is better quality. That would definitely influence my buying habits for my next down purchases.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey, all, Marmot is not "full of it" as these "industry mucmymucks" are saying. (who, a competitor?)

 

Marmot is the largest down buyer in the climbing apparel industry.

The buyers are able to purchace the vast majority of highest quality down from Eastern european farmers.

 

Reasons Marmot has the best down in the industry?

1: Marmot independantly tests every 16 pound shipment they receive, They test it in house, then also send it to an independant testing house. I've seen the test results from this; EVERY shipment tests out at 900 fill standards. Even Marmots 800 fill down tests out at 900 in the lab. NO OTHER manufacturer teste EVERY 16 pound shipment.

One of the high end manufacturers recently went 18 months without independantly testing theirs.

 

The down used by Marmot is NEVER compressed until the customer or store stuffs that bag into its stuff sack. The down is shipped to marmot, worked with, and shipped to stores NEVER having been stuffed. I don't believe any other manufacturer can claim this.

 

The baffles in a marmot bag are filled with computer controlled fill equipment. This is NOT a bag stuffed by a seamstress with a yardstick and a dictate to "fill them full"; Marmot bags are so precisely filled that when comparing bag weights, your marmot bags differ very little in total weights.

 

Marmot bags offer continous baffle stitching; some High end manufacturers (no names) have semicontinous stitching of horizontal baffles. Saves cost, but This can allow down to shift in the bag, woah!

 

marmot mountaineer bags all come standard with a reinforced footbox. standard.

 

Marmot bags in side profile, maintain their inches of loft down the length of the bag. Some high end manufacturers have differential fill, more loft up top, skimping on inches towards the footbox. Cheaper, but it's like having two different temperature bags.

 

Also, Marmot down is guaranteed to have no "couchet" i.e. reused down. Marmot is the only manufacturer to be able to make this claim.

 

And for tech correctness, Down higher than 900 fill will not loft up even a flimsy fabric? Incorrect. Down is measured in a tube, with a weight placed in the top- of the cylinder. This weight is considerably heavier than 30d ripstop. The reason there is no 1000 fill down is the current industry testing standard maxes out at 900.

 

So, thus are the FACTS about Marmot down. Best down program in the industry.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Think of that?? all that good wholesomeness. Kind of like a choclate candy bar and a beer on a warm afternoon climbing. As the sun sets you get that warm feeling. I bet that is what this bag would feel like!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Beck, you work for marmot or sumpin'?

 

BTW, differential fills are a feature, not a flaw. I'd rather save weight in places like the footbox in trade for more down above my chest, head, etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

Sign in to follow this  

×