minx Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 Some thoughts for the conservatives who rail against the greenies. Can conservatives work for a better environment and be true to their politics? Interesting thoughts on the topic. Nice history lesson if nothing else ...This is the question John Bliese has taken up in his book The Greening of Conservative America (Westview Press). Bliese marshals an impressive array of evidence for a proto-environmentalist streak within conservatism in the post-war years—proof, he says, that conservatives can comfortably approach environmental issues from within their own intellectual tradition. This issue is particularly important to Christians, whose faith counsels a sacramental vision of nature and opposition to the hubris underlying the modern economy and its institutionalized disregard for the care of God’s creation. “You cannot know that life is holy if you are content to live from economic practices that daily destroy life and diminish its possibility,” writes Wendell Berry..... Full Article http://www.utne.com/pub/2003_116/promo/10361-1.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobBob Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 The Utne Reader...last time I looked at one of those (admittedly 14-15 years ago), they didn't appear to be capable of understanding conservative point-of-view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexual_chocolate Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 I think the Utne Reader understands a conservative point-of-view just fine; CONSERVATIVES don't understand a conservative point-of-view, and that seems to be the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 we understand that you're a turd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 trask said: we understand that you're a turd AGAIN THE DEPTH OF THE CONSERVATIVE ARGUMENT IS UNHERALDED! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 shut up erik and have another burger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 I don't believe that conservatism can ever be reconciled with conservation of natural resources. The two are diametrically opposed. Natural resources and the environment are the common possession of all the people. Conservatism is all about all power and wealth going to the individual according to how hard he works (or else bribes, steals or cheats). To a conservative, anything owned in common is something which simply has not yet been claimed by an individual (or corporation). To a conservative, there is nothing more important than the immediate accumulation of wealth, and that includes the preservation of common resources for future generations. Much of conservative philosophy comes from Christianity which preaches that resources were placed on earth by God for the explict purpose to be exploited by man (interpreted as whichever man gets there first). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobBob Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 Natural resources...are the common possession of all the people. Uh, not exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 RobBob, would you care to elaborate? Do you mean to say that clean are and water are not important if they lie on private property? That's basically what the property rights movement is all about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 Environmentalism is at some level conservative in that it is opposed to change. But political conservatism is opposed to social and economic change, and environmental conservatism is opposed to environmental change. Since its the current economic and political system which is causing much of the environmental change, the two philosophies conflict. Of course, current conservatism is Industrial era liberalism (individual liberty and rights, pro-industry, increase of wealth) and current liberalism is Industrial era radicalism... and you could argue that curreent environmentalism is as influenced by Industrial era conservatism as it is by radicalism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 The absolutely most concise definitions I can give in modern terms are the following: Liberalism = Altruism Conservatism = Selfishness Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 spoken like a true lefty... i have run into plenty of selfish liberals out there. mostly "i got mine" union members. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobBob Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 Eventually that type of socialist thinking evolves into "socialism for you; capitalism for me." Conservatives save for a rainy day. Liberals party now, and then have to go ask dad the conservative for more money later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
specialed Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 Dru said: Environmentalism is at some level conservative in that it is opposed to change. But political conservatism is opposed to social and economic change, and environmental conservatism is opposed to environmental change. Since its the current economic and political system which is causing much of the environmental change, the two philosophies conflict. Of course, current conservatism is Industrial era liberalism (individual liberty and rights, pro-industry, increase of wealth) and current liberalism is Industrial era radicalism... and you could argue that curreent environmentalism is as influenced by Industrial era conservatism as it is by radicalism. Dru is smart. Its all a rather intellectual argument since politics in real life don't follow the traditional liberal / conservative paradigms. If conservatives were all for less government, for example, then what's up with Fed's involvement with state's rights and the medical marijuana issue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobBob Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 Catburd, you are playing fast and loose with, among other things, the term "natural resources." For instance, I own the mineral rights under my real estate. They are natural resources. I also own the timber on my land. Etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
specialed Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 RobBob said: Catburd, you are playing fast and loose with, among other things, the term "natural resources." For instance, I own the mineral rights under my real estate. They are natural resources. I also own the timber on my land. Etc. Yeah but if you live next to a riparian area you can't cut down the trees along it, or fuck with the river bank even if its on your property. Property rights are not absolute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 specialed said: RobBob said: Catburd, you are playing fast and loose with, among other things, the term "natural resources." For instance, I own the mineral rights under my real estate. They are natural resources. I also own the timber on my land. Etc. Yeah but if you live next to a riparian area you can't cut down the trees along it, or fuck with the river bank even if its on your property. Property rights are not absolute. and ya can't usually bust the pimpin dope rhymes out your bedroom speakers at max volume cause of noise bylaws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobBob Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 I didn't say that they were. As an owner of tidal waterfront, I would say that the public is represented if not over-represented by coastal management plans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 That's not necessarily true. Like RobBob, I own tidal waterfront at a Puget Sound beach in Snohomish county. I own my tide rights. I legally have trees cut, bulkheads and sand traps built and can run squatters off my beach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 Dru said: spoken like a true lefty... i have run into plenty of selfish liberals out there. mostly "i got mine" union members. I feel I must act like more of a left winger than I actually am on cc.com because it is so top heavy with vocal right wingers. It would be way to boring if we just let the conservatives run the whole show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 tidal = not riparian except of course for river mouths Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 Dru said: tidal = not riparian tidal is even more regulated due to the Salmon issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobBob Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 dru, you tweaker, riparian is a term also used for estuaries as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 ya but salmon dont spawn on beaches, oolichans do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 Dru said: ya but salmon dont spawn on beaches, oolichans do. dru, I'm at the mouth of a major river. the salmon cruise around my beach all the time (in fact they die here sometimes after spawning). the ecologists and state fucks claim that there's some microscopic fish dna or some shit here on the beach. they'd like to stop us from building and screwing around with our beach-front, but they don't have the legal power to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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