SECRETARY RUMSFELD DOING A GOOD JOB!!!

[sexual_chocolate]

Do you ever embarrass yourself?

Not that I necessarily favor group censure, but....

[tomcat]

sexual_chocolate said:

Do you ever embarrass yourself?

Not that I necessarily favor group censure, but....

 

Careful with that word, censure! You'll have the GED scholar gang after you in no time.

[Greg_W]

sexual_chocolate said:

I have come to the conclusion that GregW is an insensitive racist caricature being manipulated by someone rather simple-minded. Perhaps Ronald Reagan is a visitor here?

Ooops, but Ronald Reagan was simply an insensitive racist caricature being manipulated by dinosaurs (Go America!).

 

 

Hey, you don't know me. Until you get to know me, or talk to people on this site who do (there are about 5 who really know me), shut your motherfucking mouth. You piece of shit. You want to call me names, let's meet and you can do it face to face. Do you believe strongly enough to stand up for it? You fucking pussy, hiding behind your computer. Name the time and place or shut the fuck up.

 

Greg W

[allthumbs]

Greg_W said:

sexual_chocolate said:

I have come to the conclusion that GregW is an insensitive racist caricature being manipulated by someone rather simple-minded. Perhaps Ronald Reagan is a visitor here?

Ooops, but Ronald Reagan was simply an insensitive racist caricature being manipulated by dinosaurs (Go America!).

 

 

Hey, you don't know me. Until you get to know me, or talk to people on this site who do (there are about 5 who really know me), shut your motherfucking mouth. You piece of shit. You want to call me names, let's meet and you can do it face to face. Do you believe strongly enough to stand up for it? You fucking pussy, hiding behind your computer. Name the time and place or shut the fuck up.

 

Greg W

 

I'm down with exactly the same feeling as Greg. SC - you fucking suck

[minx]

SC-i hate to agree w/greg and trask but i think you might be a tad off base here (although i can see how you might get there)

 

greg seems alright from my limited interaction w/him. perhaps you should get to know him a little before saying those kind of things. we're all carricatures of ourselves to some extent when posting on the net.

[allthumbs]

Minx, you can't reason with SC. Of all the posters on this board, he's the one I really hold in utter contempt and disdain. I almost think he's evil.

[iain]

nice a playground fight I love these things. a good ol tough guy faceoff will settle this little internet tiff.

[Billy]

Rumsfeld is a jackass. And Gregw, you shouldn't believe the propaganda. There are plenty of other governments who supress and brutalize, yet we aren't messing with them. We are messing with Iraq because we can and because there is oil for our american SUV's at stake.

[catbirdseat]

Send The Marines, by Tom Lehrer

 

When someone makes a move

Of which we don't approve,

Who is it that always intervenes?

U.N. and O.A.S.,

They have their place, I guess,

But first - send the Marines!

 

We'll send them all we've got,

John Wayne and Randolph Scott;

Remember those exciting fighting scenes?

To the shores of Tripoli,

But not to Mississippoli.

 

What do we do?

We send the Marines!

For might makes right,

And till they've seen the light,

They've got to be protected,

All their rights respected,

Till somebody we like can be elected.

 

Members of the corps

All hate the thought of war;

They'd rather kill them off by peaceful means.

Stop calling it aggression,

Ooh, we hate that expression!

 

We only want the world to know

That we support the status quo.

They love us everywhere we go,

So when in doubt, Send the Marines!

 

From 1965 That was the Year that Was

 

[JayB]

I've said it before, but it bears repeating. The US goes attacks Iraq and the Iraqi people are no longer ruled by Saddam Hussein. The US does not attack and the Iraqi people continue to be ruled by Saddam Hussein. Unless you believe that the people of Iraq will be better off under Saddam Hussein, you are not protesting on their behalf, and you are certainly not on a crusade for peace, as that word is not consistent with the conditions under which the Iraqi people have been living at any time for the past 20 years. Read the story below, or any of the infinite number of related stories you'll be reading in the coming days and months, then tell me again why you've been protesting.

 

"Iraqi border village is the first to fall

 

SAFWAN, Iraq Happiness and dread rose together Friday from this desolate border village, where some of the first Iraqis to encounter American and British troops found the joy of their deliverance muted by the fear that it was too good to last.

.

As hundreds of troops swept in here just after dawn, the heartache of a town that has felt some of the hardest edges of Saddam Hussein’s rule seemed to burst forth, with villagers running into the streets to celebrate in a kind of grim ecstasy, laughing and weeping in long guttural cries.

.

‘‘Ooooooh, peace be upon you, peace be upon you, peace you, ooooooh,’’ Zahra Khafi, a 68-year-old resident, cried to a group of American and British visitors who came to the town shortly after Saddam’s army had appeared to melt away. ‘‘I’m not afraid of Saddam anymore.’’

.

Two years ago, Khafi said, her 39-year son, Masood, was murdered by Saddam’s men for a crime no greater than devotion to the Shiite branch of Islam, which is out of official favor in Iraq. As Khafi told her story, her joy gave way to gloom, and she began to weep, and then to moan, and finally she pleaded with her visitors to stay and protect her.

.

‘‘Should I be afraid?’’ Khafi said, mumbling and wiping her eyes. ‘‘Is Saddam coming back?’’

"

Source

 

However, I'm sure that the people in this village would have their joy muted if they only had one of our local activists there to scold them for their joy, and explain how dissapointing it is to see them validating the scourge of American militarism. Or how they should be marching in protest because the millitary action was not sanctioned by the UN, and is therefore immoral. Pack up a few of your signs, march into Safwan, and set them straight. I'm sure that you'll be welcome.

[Dru]

JayB said:

I've said it before, but it bears repeating. The US goes attacks Iraq and the Iraqi people are no longer ruled by Saddam Hussein. The US does not attack and the Iraqi people continue to be ruled by Saddam Hussein. Unless you believe that the people of Iraq will be better off under Saddam Hussein, you are not protesting on their behalf, and you are certainly not on a crusade for peace, as that word is not consistent with the conditions under which the Iraqi people have been living at any time for the past 20 years. Read the story below, or any of the infinite number of related stories you'll be reading in the coming days and months, then tell me again why you've been protesting.

 

"Iraqi border village is the first to fall

 

SAFWAN, Iraq Happiness and dread rose together Friday from this desolate border village, where some of the first Iraqis to encounter American and British troops found the joy of their deliverance muted by the fear that it was too good to last.

.

As hundreds of troops swept in here just after dawn, the heartache of a town that has felt some of the hardest edges of Saddam Hussein’s rule seemed to burst forth, with villagers running into the streets to celebrate in a kind of grim ecstasy, laughing and weeping in long guttural cries.

.

‘‘Ooooooh, peace be upon you, peace be upon you, peace you, ooooooh,’’ Zahra Khafi, a 68-year-old resident, cried to a group of American and British visitors who came to the town shortly after Saddam’s army had appeared to melt away. ‘‘I’m not afraid of Saddam anymore.’’

.

Two years ago, Khafi said, her 39-year son, Masood, was murdered by Saddam’s men for a crime no greater than devotion to the Shiite branch of Islam, which is out of official favor in Iraq. As Khafi told her story, her joy gave way to gloom, and she began to weep, and then to moan, and finally she pleaded with her visitors to stay and protect her.

.

‘‘Should I be afraid?’’ Khafi said, mumbling and wiping her eyes. ‘‘Is Saddam coming back?’’

"

Source

 

However, I'm sure that the people in this village would have their joy muted if they only had one of our local activists there to scold them for their joy, and explain how dissapointing it is to see them validating the scourge of American militarism. Or how they should be marching in protest because the millitary action was not sanctioned by the UN, and is therefore immoral. Pack up a few of your signs, march into Safwan, and set them straight. I'm sure that you'll be welcome.

 

If Russian tanks had been rolling into Seattle in the 1980's I'm sure TASS would have found some Americans willing to joyfully run out and embrace their "liberators" too

[sexual_chocolate]

I already made that argument, and he chose to ignore me.

 

I was watching Peter Jennings last night. He spoke with a US minister who had recently spent time in Baghdad, and what he said was that the people he spoke to were unequivocally OPPOSED to a US armed invasion. He said that the people weren't necessarily all that happy with many things Saddam did, but this did NOT mean they wanted an invasion. They were more of the mind that they should be left to work out their own problems.

 

Another interviewee was a professor of Political Science at Baghdad University. He was a former member of the Baath Party, some twenty years ago, but split with them for some reason. He has actually been a critic of the Regime, quite outspoken about abuses regarding ethnic minorities, in particular the Kurds in the north and Shias in the south. I really didn't know that any dissent was allowed, so to hear from an activist of sorts was really something.

 

Kurds and Shias=Native Americans in the US?

 

And again, should Cuban exiles dictate foreign policy regarding Cuba? Many favor an immediate invasion, justified mainly by hyperbole. I don't want to discount what Iraqi exiles say, yet I am cautious.

[Dru]

The Iraqi community in Vancouver has people in favour of both viewpoints (pro and anti invasion)

[sexual_chocolate]

Greg_W said:

sexual_chocolate said:

I have come to the conclusion that GregW is an insensitive racist caricature being manipulated by someone rather simple-minded. Perhaps Ronald Reagan is a visitor here?

Ooops, but Ronald Reagan was simply an insensitive racist caricature being manipulated by dinosaurs (Go America!).

 

 

Hey, you don't know me. Until you get to know me, or talk to people on this site who do (there are about 5 who really know me), shut your motherfucking mouth. You piece of shit. You want to call me names, let's meet and you can do it face to face. Do you believe strongly enough to stand up for it? You fucking pussy, hiding behind your computer. Name the time and place or shut the fuck up.

 

Greg W

 

GregW, I think I have a pretty good idea about you. Of course that understanding is by no means static, yet you continually reinforce it. Your above response does nothing to dispel my general ideas.

 

I also find it quite humorous that you so quickly challenge me with physical confrontation....Perhaps there is more than a grain of truth in what I said? Perhaps the UN should investigate this matter? (Or would you play it like Saddam?)

 

Furthermore, I did not call you names. I was attempting to characterize your behaviour with descriptives that many might be offended by, but this doesn't make it name-calling. "You stinking dodo bird" is a better example of name-calling, since it is quite obvious you are not a dodo bird. Oh, and "You piece of shit" is also an example of name-calling, since we both know that beyond metaphor, this simply couldn't be true (unless I have one stinky keyboard).

 

As to the challenge of confronting you in the physical dimension, I'm more interested in this:

Why on earth might you be so incredibly incensed by a rather bland characterization by someone on the internet? A simple question....

 

And one last thing: Whether or not you are racist, sexist, or violent, probably has little import for me personally, beyond the fact that I would prefer racism, sexism, and violence to be done away with.

And when pressed, I think I would qualify my previous assessment: I don't think you ARE, in any static way, a racist/sexist caricature, but I WILL say that I have noted behaviour on your part that reeked of both traits. This I stand by; I have no reason to announce it to you in a more personal way. (I find your challenge to a duel quite romantic, but I must confess: I hold very little respect for the antiquated notions of settling disputes with barbaric displays of violence. Perhaps if you argued with Trask, he'd be happy to oblige?)

 

[allthumbs]

The Canadian anti's should combine forces with the 2000 U.S. anti's. hooyah!

[sexual_chocolate]

You said before that you were "anti".

[Dru]

and now the word from the pope...

 

Pope denounces war as a threat against fate of humanity

 

Saturday, March 22, 2003

 

VATICAN CITY -- Pope John Paul II Saturday denounced the war against Iraq as a threat against the ''fate of humanity.''

 

It was his first public comment on the U.S.-led military attacks since the war began early Thursday.

 

''When war, as in these days in Iraq, threatens the fate of humanity, it is ever more urgent to proclaim, with a strong and decisive voice, that only peace is the road to follow to construct a more just and united society,'' John Paul said. ''Violence and arms can never resolve the problems of men.''

 

John Paul, with impassioned speeches and Vatican diplomacy, lobbied against war and in favour of a negotiated solution in the months before the conflict.

 

He made his remarks in an address at the Vatican to an Italian religious television channel, Telepace.

 

A few hours after the war began, the Vatican expressed ''deep pain'' and faulted both sides for failing to find a peaceful solution.

 

© Copyright Associated Press

[JayB]

Yeah - the International Herald Tribune is a state controlled paper known for uncritical recitation of US propoganda. Good analogy.

 

And I wasn't dodging the assertion you made, SC - but as I've said before I tend to think that people are more inclined to speak their minds when doing so will not get them tortured or killed, and the Iraqis who are in that position seem to have a much lower opinion of the current regime than you do. Again - show me the masses of Iraqi's who are not subject to immediate retribution from the Ba'athist regime rising up in support of Saddam Hussein.

 

And speaking of Iraqi dissidents, what behavior, pray tell, is likely to make someone unwelcome in Saddam's Iraq? Voicing their displeasure after their family has been murdered? Agitating for democracy? Human rights? For any and all of the things that the pampered parlor leftists take for granted in the US and Western Europe? It's not like we are talking about the German expatriate population in South America circa 1946 here, compadre. The people who fled Iraq most likely did so for agitating on behalf of causes that you claim to support, but if you believe that their having done so, along with the fact that they have actually lived in the country makes them unqualified to speak on behalf of their own people, fine.

 

Remind me - again- how it is that you claim to be opposing the war out of concern for their well-being. It will be necessary for you to claim that the Iraqi people were better off under Saddam. While you are doing that, imagine yourself making the same arugments to the faces of the people in any of the towns that have been liberated thus far, and their reaction. For bonus points, try to make that argument without contravening the very principles that you claim to be arguing on behalf of - not supporting dictators, regimes that torture their people, suppress dissent, etc.

 

Whenever these crises errupt, I'm on always on the verge of being surprised by the reactionary Leftist's ability to jettison the causes that supposedly matter to them - freedom from repression, from want, from hunger, from fear - in favor of the causes that really matter to them - strident opposition to the US, capitalism, etc - no matter what the result is for the people who's well-being that they claim to be interested in protecting. Then I remember the Cold War and the manner in which the Left agitated on behalf of the various totalitarian states that were slaughtering and brutally subjugating their people in the name the Left's pet political fantasy of the moment - Communism - for the entirety of the Cold War, despite the fact that the true nature of these regimes was readily apparent to anyone with even a passing interest in the facts. Then I can understand how the far Left can see any developments like those currently underway in Iraq - such as any rejoicing on the part of the Iraqi people when they no longer have to live in fear of Saddam - as absolutely detrimental to the causes that they really care about, like reflexively denouncing the US. Then it all makes sense.

 

In any event, I suspect this is one of the last posts I'll ever have to make on this issue as the events unfolding in that country will discredit your arguments much more forcefully than anything I have to say ever could.

 

Ciao

[sexual_chocolate]

I think you are overly fascinated with this mysterious left, repeatedly lumping me in with Totalitarianism-adoring Stalinists. Maybe this makes your life simpler- you know, a paper tiger to attack with neo-liberal (oops!) rhetoric?

Maybe expand your reading list a bit. And while you're doing that, I'm off to the UW rock, for all those wishing for a duel (or a friendly bouldering sesh!).

[JayB]

Dru said:

and now the word from the pope...

 

 

Politics does indeed make strange bedfellows. The Catholic Church has certainly been a catalyst for progressive causes in this century, and all previous centuries for that matter, so it totally makes sense that the Left would leverage that impressive track record, along with the Church's well known agitation on behalf of reproductive rights, women's rights, and other favorite Left wing causes on behalf of those opposing the war to remove Saddam from power. Besides, the previous Pope was certainly steadfast in his opposition to the Nazis - wasn't he? Every Jew has a picture of that guy in his living room in remembrance of his courageous actions on behalf of the Jewish people during the Holocaust. Of course, the current Pope was alive then, and that guy was at least as vocal in his opposition to the German Army's actions then as he has been against the US's now. Wasn't he? No?

 

[JayB]

sexual_chocolate said:

I think you are overly fascinated with this mysterious left, repeatedly lumping me in with Totalitarianism-adoring Stalinists. Maybe this makes your life simpler- you know, a paper tiger to attack with neo-liberal (oops!) rhetoric?

Maybe expand your reading list a bit. And while you're doing that, I'm off to the UW rock, for all those wishing for a duel (or a friendly bouldering sesh!).

 

The case of the Left and Uncle Joe, (or Mao, or Pol Pot, or Ho Chi Minh) was merely an analogy to illustrate the tendency of the reactionary Left to abandon it's nominal causes - freedom from oppression, want, fear, starvation - whenever doing so would necessarily conflict with the more important tasks of demonizing the US and the economic system it champions. The comparison here is apt, even if you have distanced yourself from your fellow travellers with respect to Stalin/Mao/etc.

 

Until the day comes when it is necessary for me to invent strawmen that could acutally discredit the radical Left any more effectively than "The Movement's" current actions and extended history already have, you'll do just fine.

 

Happy Bouldering,

 

 

[johnny_destiny]

WEll, I just got back to the cold and whiney NW Yuppie climbing site. Here is modified prayer for our soldiers in the field tonight.

Soldier, put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against Sadam’s schemes. For our struggle is not against the flesh and blood, but against the authorities, against the powers of this evil man’s world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore soldier put on not only your uniform and flack jacket but don the armor of God…stand firm then with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of rightness in place, and with your feet fitted with readiness that comes from serenity…take up the shield of faith with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of evil. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the spirit which is the word of God…Pray on all occasions and keep in mind. BE ALERT.

[Norsky]

adventuregal said:

Atari... Iain's metaphor for the world...

He is simply appealing to the lowest common denominator.

[Norsky]

johnny_destiny said:

WEll, I just got back to the cold and whiney NW Yuppie climbing site. Here is modified prayer for our soldiers in the field tonight.

Soldier, put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against Sadam’s schemes. For our struggle is not against the flesh and blood, but against the authorities, against the powers of this evil man’s world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore soldier put on not only your uniform and flack jacket but don the armor of God…stand firm then with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of rightness in place, and with your feet fitted with readiness that comes from serenity…take up the shield of faith with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of evil. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the spirit which is the word of God…Pray on all occasions and keep in mind. BE ALERT.

 

What exactly is the "armor of God" is it his words "turn the other cheek", or "Love thy neighbor"? Are you serious??? Time to wake up from your fairy tale adult santa claus. God is neither alive nor dead. He never existed in the first place. This is a war between two zealots claiming God is on their side. Classic!

[johnny_destiny]

 

What exactly is the "armor of God" is it his words "turn the other cheek", or "Love thy neighbor"? Are you serious??? Time to wake up from your fairy tale adult santa claus. God is neither alive nor dead. He never existed in the first place. This is a war between two zealots claiming God is on their side. Classic!

Better get out your King James version...I doubt you have the time or patience for some Greek translated versions that are used in Seminary.