Should North Cascades National Park Be Abolished?

[Fairweather]

It's what happens when "public servants" forget who they work for, transcend multiple elected administrations, and begin to think they are our masters.

 

Marblemount tends to be pretty anarchist/weird, and some of it might bleed into (or be driven by?) NPS staff. Just before Covid, I stopped to get gas there and someone had bashed in the windows of the station and painted a bunch of anti-oil company nonsense all over the rest. I've never visited their HQ in Sedro Wolley, don't know much about current Stehekin. I suspect the entire local unit suffers from group-think ala places like Port Townsend, Vashon Island, Fairhaven, Orcas. Fire and/or transfer everyone, maybe it can be saved.😎

Edited April 28, 2023 by Fairweather

[olyclimber]

The problems of the NCNP are nothing compared to a number of places.  Can you hear those people in Port Townsend and Vashon humming along?

 

[Fairweather]

Re that great video, well, it kind of makes my case. And more. Maybe the best way to diffuse outdoor recreation--and save mobbed landscapes and towns--is to abolish the entire national park system. Wilderness and the NPS were intended, in part, to provide a sort of "escape valve" for/from capitalism. One that was affordable to ordinary people. In just over 100 years, NPS landscapes and management is morphing into something else entirely.

 

[olyclimber]

I'm not sure I follow your logic there, but as far as "affordability" I would love to see the Park system maintenance be paid out of the general funds and be free to enter for all. As for what that video shows,  I think unless we start building roads into the center of the NCNP and put a big parking lots near to the most "Insta" worthy vistas that NCNP will never "share its full load".   I'm ok with that never happening, I understand you may see it differently.  And seems like the biggest cost in those "Insta worthy" places is preventing overuse/destruction.

Perhaps you can show articles/websites/documents that show otherwise, but besides providing an "escape valve" the key purpose of the park system was more to preserve and protect wild places for all people....including future citizens.  In this day and age that seems pretty dang difficult given the garbage heaps modern masses seem to leave behind, and the general lack of respect demonstrated time after time these day.  But that is the mission...its for all people.   I just picked this link randomly (maybe this is a well know "lib" org that you would despise, I have no idea. Feel free to share your own links describing the goals of the creation of the Park System if these seem bent in a particular direction.):

https://www.arcadiapublishing.com/Navigation/Community/Arcadia-and-THP-Blog/July-2016/Why-Was-the-National-Park-Service-Created

or from the Park itself:

https://www.nps.gov/articles/npshistory-origins.htm#:~:text=It stemmed from the desire,national park has expanded significantly.

 I would bet you have less a problem with the Park system its self, but more of a problem with the people running it (I'm sure you'll tell me I'm wrong if I am).  If that is true then I think that is a poor reason to get rid of the system without demonstrating that another system is truly better and is immune to the same problems.  The State and the USFS were created with different missions than the Park system. Seems like if that mission has strayed its worth just fixing it, unless you think the Park system should haven never been created..  I think in general the creation of the Park System was one of the best things this country ever did, and I'm sure grateful for the ability to put on a backpack occasionally and escape the rat race. 

[Fairweather]

9 minutes ago, olyclimber said:

 I think in general the creation of the Park System was one of the best things this country ever did, and I'm not sure I'm sure grateful for the ability to put on a backpack occasionally and escape the rat race. 

This is part of the problem: you automatically think of national parks as your only escape, when, in fact, NPs represent a relatively small part of what's available. National parks have become "concentrators" for urban and suburban folks who want adventure--but not too much. They even collect patches and bumper stickers and themed blankets. Enter the rule-makers and fee collectors! We have ourselves a real industry here. Yes, this might be the future of NCNP if it remains a park. Or expands.

Read up on the Wilderness Society's 1930s opposition to Ice Peaks National Park and you might better understand what I'm saying.

 

[olyclimber]

5 minutes ago, Fairweather said:

This is part of the problem: you automatically think of national parks as your only escape, when, in fact, NPs represent a relatively small part of what's available. National parks have become "concentrators" for urban and suburban folks who want adventure--but not too much. They even collect patches and bumper stickers and themed blankets. Enter the rule-makers and fee collectors! We have ourselves a real industry here. Yes, this might be the future of NCNP if it remains a park. Or expands.

Read up on the Wilderness Society's 1930s opposition to Ice Peaks National Park and you might better understand what I'm saying.

 

Quite contrary to every single TR I posted last year...in fact I didn't really go into the park system at all as I wanted to be with my dog and he isn't allowed in there with minor exceptions.

[Fairweather]

I was responding to your statement about NPs and being able to escape. And I was just saying that they are best avoided anyhow. But I agree, not being able to bring your dog is a real drawback to spending time at Rainier, Olympic--or North Cascades NP. Particularly ironic, since Stephen Mather had all the wolves (and mountain lions) eradicated at Mount Rainier NP in the teens, 20s and early 30s. IMO, dogs are just modern proxies for the beautiful animals he and his national park administrators had butchered almost 100 years ago. I digress.

Sure, the parks were a great idea. In fact, most of the big, popular national parks--like MRNP--are older than the National Park Service itself. But times change. There are better ways to "manage" wilderness I think. Another example, Civil Service. It was a great idea too--better than Spoils. But fast forward 130 years and we have a bloated, dangerous bureaucracy full of overpaid career idiots who think they're somehow above the voters they serve. Full circle, NPS.

Edited June 3, 2023 by Fairweather

[jdj]

The national parks were not then and not now created to manage wilderness and in fact the term did not exist in the minds of lawmakers in 1872. You are conflating official wilderness and wild lands. The parks are intended to protect significant natural and cultural resources while providing for visitation and enjoyment and for the most part the NPS does an outstanding job of that. To suggest the system should be abandoned for some reason that has you on a personal soapbox (and one I don't understand) is just silly.

And by the way - you can take your dog - just keep it on a leash where it should be anyway.

[olyclimber]

2 hours ago, jdj said:

And by the way - you can take your dog - just keep it on a leash where it should be anyway.

Well as I said there are huge limits as to where you can bring a dog,. It varies park to park but here are a few examples: 
 

in the ONP:

 

in the NCNP:

 

personally I’m not complaining about it.  I just look at it as differing land use rules with different goals in mind for each agency that manages the land.  I can take Kiba into the national forest and wilderness areas.  There are TONS public lands he can be on, so we just go there instead.  

[Fairweather]

3 hours ago, jdj said:

The national parks were not then and not now created to manage wilderness and in fact the term did not exist in the minds of lawmakers in 1872. You are conflating official wilderness and wild lands. The parks are intended to protect significant natural and cultural resources while providing for visitation and enjoyment and for the most part the NPS does an outstanding job of that. To suggest the system should be abandoned for some reason that has you on a personal soapbox (and one I don't understand) is just silly.

And by the way - you can take your dog - just keep it on a leash where it should be anyway.

It's not 1872 I have a problem with. It's 1916. And the way those idiots have been interpreting 1964. Since 1973.

And no, dogs are not allowed on NP trails--even if they're on a leash.

[thedylan]

Honestly it's NIMBYism. I feel for the staff at NOCA because they have a big job and a small budget, but it's so easy to fall into this type of thinking... "we used to have such a nice quiet neighborhood."

Take the recent bear issues at Cascade Pass. Here is what NOCA says on their website:

Quote

 

A bear recently obtained a food reward at Boston Basin and Cascade Pass trailheads due to irresponsible human behavior (improper food storage). When accessing areas along the Cascade River Road, or any location in the park, NEVER leave scented items unattended when not properly stored. DO NOT STOP and DO NOT EAT along Cascade River Road and Boston Basin and Cascade Pass trailheads.
Johannesburg campground has been closed until further notice.
The picnic tables at the parking area are closed.

 

Blame, shame, and punishment, without sharing any responsibility. This isn't helpful communication. I didn't learn anything except that I'm probably a bad person who shouldn't visit the park since I'll ruin it for everyone including the bears. The signs they put on Cascade River Road have much the same message.

I also don't see how this helps the bear. Maybe some friendly educational signs, plans for food storage lockers, I don't know. I wish I could see that the park service was stepping up, but the message we all hear time and time again is that park visitors are a problem they wish would just go away. What if instead we accepted reality and got to work? I personally care much more about protecting the bears that actually live in the park today than some abstract and problematic idea of "untouched wilderness." I don't think angry signs and punishments are going to do the job.

 

[Fairweather]

Well said, Dylan. I hadn't heard about this bear issue, but it sounds rather common. I think the NOCA notice sums up what I've been trying to say here. They really do think it's "their" park. Also, love the all-caps in their public notice; I can almost see the NPS uniformed feminista standing on the bridge, shouting into the bullhorn at cars as they travel up the river toward her sacred domain. 

[olyclimber]

I think this thread sums up all the specific things you hate quite well! Anything else to add? 

So far:

 

1.  People who run NCNP

2. People who live in Port Townsend, Vashon Island, Fairhaven, and Orcas.

3.  The National Park system all together.

4. "Feminista" which I believe is used to describe people who believe women should have the same rights as men.

 

Or maybe hate is too strong a word? Just disagree with?

[olyclimber]

I can't help but compare this conversation to the "defund the police" movement. there are real similarities.

Don't like the people in charge? Feel like they are abusing their power and responsibly? Abolish them! 

I'm not trying to discourage this conversation at all, but just pointing that out.

 

[Phil K]

Bicyclists. I think he dislikes bicyclists too.

[olyclimber]

I do like how Orcas gets called out specifically.  Are we to assume that the rest of the San Juan Islands are kosher?

[JasonG]

I think Lopez is sus

[olyclimber]

Decatur is the where the Elite cabal in charge of Group-Think lives. And then there is Trump Island.  Does this not scream "Evil Lair of NCNP" to you???

 

[thedylan]

Kind of on my own topic here but I just wanted to say: I saw they changed the language of the bear notice on the NOCA website and it is definitely better. Maybe they read this thread! Anyway I'm grateful that someone did that, I think people are more likely to listen and understand.

[Fairweather]

On 7/12/2023 at 12:43 PM, olyclimber said:

I'm not trying to discourage this conversation at all, but just pointing that out.

 

The post-mortem on this website will list olyclimber as the cause of death. He just couldn't help himself.

[olyclimber]

26 minutes ago, Fairweather said:

The post-mortem on this website will list olyclimber as the cause of death. He just couldn't help himself.

What are you on about?   Are you mad because I don't lift you up and celebrate the list of things you hate?   Is that how I'm "killing the site"?     Actually, I've paid money out of my own pocket to keep this place running.  I secured a sponsor to help keep the site going.  And people have chipped in as well.  Hell, @JasonG single handedly ran an auction of his photography and raised a bunch of money to keep this place going.  And all the users that have chipped in individually....you guys are why this site is still here.

I appreciate and tolerate different points of view.    What I'm not a fan of is the sort of Eeryore negativity that drags down healthy discussion.   But even Eeryore has his place.  I have nothing against donkeys in general.

 

 

[Fairweather]

11 hours ago, olyclimber said:

 

I appreciate and tolerate different points of view.   

 

 

Yikes! Seattle bubble? You haven't changed a bit in the ten years I've been gone. Poster boy for my favorite WFB Jr:

Liberals claim to be open-minded and wanting to give a fair hearing to all points of view. But are soon shocked and horrified to discover there are other points of view.

 

Enjoy the dank!

[olyclimber]

Some how i need to to change? Look in the mirror when you say that. I’m not sure what polarizing indoctrination you’re  quoting there but it isn’t helping you.

I appreciate but that it exists, that you exist.  But I don’t have to agree. 
 

A little sad that you drag this conversation here when there is so much we have in common.  You know, like being outdoors and on mountains and things.  
 

 

[Josh Lewis]

This has been a great popcorn show. Anyways, grabbing a cigar:

 

[JasonG]

@Josh Lewis!!!!!

Good to see you around these parts.  Post up some of your recent adventures for us geezers!