sobo

You offered one yourself yesterday... India. Although it was the Brits that first gave them the hint. They got used to it after about 100 years, then when teh Brits left, they just kept it going with the likes of Muhatma and later Indira Ghandi. I could be off base, but Egypt comes to mind as well. Anwar Saddat was doing quite well, until he got killed. They still managed to hold onto a somewhat democratic form of goevernment, altho in recent weeks/months, teh populace sounds like they want Islamic rule back. That may change now with the recent outcome in Iraq. or not. And of course there's all those South American "cesspool democracies"; democracies that say so in print but not in action. You know, Columbia, Panama, Mexico, etc. We can't count those. But there are others that are getting teh hint, like Argentina, Bolivia, Uraguay, Peru, etc. I don't think the US can claim the credit there, tho, so I'm off point of your challenge. My wife says I just like to argue, too. But I don't look at it so much as arguing as a mental exercise in "what if I loked at the thing your way..." It's just cranial stimulation.

I don't think that's what's at issue here. We are always pushing WD on nations, not withholding it. If a nation takes WD on their own willingly and runs with it, and then ends up reverting to religious rule, then that's their democratically chosen choice. That's different than the US going in there and instituting a new and unfamiliar form of government. We don't win any friends that way when our form of government eventually becomes unpopular. We can pick this up tomorrow. I gotta git to my CWMR meeting.

One could argue that that is democratic expression, but I wouldn't call it democratic government. BTW, I edited some of teh last post above, in case you missed it. Oh, and

Dru: I guess that's what i've been trying to say, it is not their tradition to be ruled this way. They are used to religious law, and WD is something they are not familiar with, adn they may be afraid of it. Regarding teh Arabs that emmigrated to teh US and other WD states, tehy obviously knew what they were getting into and wanted to go. They clearly had their motives for embracing WD. BTW, I never said, "Arabs cannot handle western democracy." I said, "It is not in the Arab mindset to accept western democracy." These are two entirely different concepts. The first implies that they are unable to deal with it, while the second notion implies that they are unwilling to deal with it. And that is entirely their choice. I am not in the habit of disparaging any race or peoples on the basis of their beliefs, customs, or religions. But I believe that the vast majority of those left in Iraq that would be governed (the Kurds, Shiites, Sunnis, etc.) have religious rule on their minds, and not WD. Those that would prefer WD will probably begin immgrating to Europe and North America soon, now that the borders are more open.

Let's look at it this way... Western democracy is big on separation of church and state. Traditional Arabian governance is based on religious law (in the terms of Islam, its called sharia). Sure, they have kings and sheiks, but there is always a religious component/leader present. Does anybody see the disconnect between the two forms of government here? I just can't see western democracy working in Iraq, or the Arabian theatre for that matter, without it being forcefully imposed on the populace. We tried it in Iran, and we saw what happened. The majority appears to like it "the way they've always done it" for thousands of years.

Allison: Sadly, I agree with you. I hope we get out soon with everyone left still alive. Dru: Clearly, generalization is not the aim here. The Arabian Peninsula has been ruled by kings and sheiks since time immemorable. Not so in Africa. Many African nations were colonized by the Dutch, English, Italians, French, and others. Those Old World nations have a distinctly different brand of government than what was in place in Africa (tribalism/clan rule) before their arrival. THE AFRICAN ABORIGINALS WERE SUBJUGATED! and Old World government was foisted upon them. That was centuries ago, and they have adapted. We did the same thing with slaves in this country. To say that it is not in the black mindset to accept WD is not a valid point to argue. This presupposes generalizations, begs the race question, and is not relevant to teh Arabian situation by virtue of the traditional form of governance. The Arabian Peninsula has never been subjugated to the point where rampant colonialism has replaced the indigenous forms of government. That's what apartheid was all about. It took teh indigenous peoples out of the loop. They had no decision making power to form a government. Hell, we did teh same thing to teh Amwerican Indian. We made ourselves feel better by giving them back some land and letting them set up tribal governments.

I can only hope that we start off as productively as we did in Afghanistan, where we "helped find" a leader that was supported by his own countrymen and recognized as a generally "good person". But we all know what happened to Hamid Kharzai, don't we? I personally do not believe that any meddling of ours in government birthing in Iraq will be successful. It is not in teh Arab mindset to accept western democracy. They have over 5000 years of being used to feudalism and dynastic rule. America got lucky when we revolted against Mother England b/c we had someplace else to go and set up shop. That is not the case in Iraq, or Israel, or Palestine. We can all see what the end product will be here. The Iraqis need to step up now and lead themselves. An army of occupation is not what we should become now.

They had a revolution because the Shah greatly modernized Iran and established social reforms, many of which angered fundamentalist religious leaders. As a result of his modernizations in teh face of fundamentalist extremism, he became "persona non gratis". In 1979 the religious opposition, lead by the Ayatollah Khomeini, drove the Shah into exile. Khomeini sought the capture of the Shah, and when we admitted him into the United States for medical treatment, Iran's response was the start of the hostage crisis at the U.S. embassy in Tehran. Don't any of us remember this? Was I the only protester on campus then? Sure, the Shah had his chambers, just as any despot. That's what I said further up the thread in response to allison's post.

You may be somewhat correct, OW. I'm not certain of the events in Iran prior to 1941, cause we were kinda busy gittin' our collective asses kicked by the Japanese and Hitler was busy with his can of whoopass in Europe. Mohammed Reza Pahlavi (the Shah, as we were to come to know him) was the shah of Iran from 1941 to 1979, except for a brief period in 1953 when Prime Minister Muhammed Mosaddeq overthrew him. Mosaddeq was in turn overthrown with assistance from the U.S. , and the shah was returned to power as a U.S. ally.

It's highly unlikely that a western style democracy/republic can stay on its feet on its own in an Arab dominated area. Look what happened to the Shah of Iran. We put him in there, the Islamic Revolution took him out. We helped prop up teh Israeli government after 1947, and the only reason it's still tehere is because of *continued* US support. Look at Saudi Arabia. Altho ruled by the Royal Family, it's stable because of continued US support. Arab governments are based on feudal relationships and family dynasties (much like old Japan and China). Always have been, always will be for the foreseeable future, WITHOUT US SUPPORT. So, do we want to be the ones to be stuck there for decades to come? It would appear that our tenure in Iraq has only just begun.

VB, love your avatar images.

Agreed. I was also put off by that phrase. Had me with 'em up to that point. Also, It's something we get ourselves into every time we "impose" our brand of democracy. S. Korea, Vietnam, Iran (remember the Shah?), Haiti, etc. Sooner or later those that we "prefer" to see as leaders become despots themselves. But do we stop hoping and working toward a more democratic planet, or just give up on the rest of them and adopt our WWI attitude of isolationism? Anybody but me remember how happy we were when Iraq invaded Iran after the hostage thing back in '79? Saddam was our friend then... You know, the enemy of my enemy is my friend... The times, they are a changin'

Good to know that a sense of humor resides on the board.

DAMN! Lost to Dru again.

Sounds like light-weight to me. Just kidding allison, I don't even know you (altho your rep precedes you!). ...sobo

Nope, didn't make it to that side of the behemoth this year. I'm just going off what I just read in Mike's link to the incidents. I would expect that with all other mountain/aircraft crashes, the site is probably Off Limits for scavenging souvenirs and such until a full investigation is completed. In other older news, there is still a plane on the mountain (somehwere high) that crashed like 50+ years ago or so, and it's still a federal crime to remove stuff from the site if you find it. I think it's because people died in that crash. I don't know what rules take over in the case of the Bell Jet Ranger since everyone aboard walked away. Mike G. would know more or be able to correct me on any of these points. Care to comment, Mike?

Yes, read the closing statement (before the "Observations" section) of the Whitcomb Incident.

I believe it was, indeed, Jim Wickwire in that party. I seem to recall reading that in the Spokane Valley Tribune, or some such paper.

I'm all tapped out. I don't get below Bend enuff to know where anything is down that ther' way. Ring the bell when somebody finally gets it.

I just wasn't sure where the dotted line for area codes changed from one to the other. It keeps washing away in that little stream.

ummmm... Horsethief Butte park? (is that 541 or 509?)

I know I wasn't there, so don't take it too critically, but there are TWO Col. Von Spankers now? OMG!! Help us! Sobered up a bit, eh?

sure it does. the vote was 5 to 4. Despite what you may think, it is the electoral college that determines who will become the Commander in Chief in this country. The popular vote is retained just to make you *feel* that your vote counts, and continues to guarantee to other nations that we practice what we preach about democracy. Our government is actually a republic, and not a "true" democracy. remember your Social Studies 101. I, for one, am glad that we reached Baghdad with as few causalties as we have so far. But I'm sure the families of 96 dead servicemen/women, 6 captured servicemen/women, and 8 missing servicemen/women don't feel quite the same as I do. My $0.02

hmmmmmmm... Maybe John still hasn't "gotten around to it" yet. It rained earlier in the week last week, which may have obliterated any tracks in the trail from The Bend to RC.

You can't see the nest from the trail or the rocks (see my earlier post, 4/03/03, 11:40 am). Everybody just STAY ON THE TRAILS to and from the climbing areas and our access will remain intact. Did you at least see the signs along the trail?