David_Parker

We are ALL victims of the tragic events in NYC and DC. We have ALL been affected and therefore we ALL should be eligible for the "Hope Pass." Too bad about the vote, but it appears that we are making headway. Keep calling and don't forget to NOT buy the pass!

Mike, I sent email expressing interest yesterday... I can actually take weekdays off. No response though, so what's up?

When I was younger, I used to be concerned about numbers. It's natural to want to compare yourself to some sort of scale. It feeds the ego. One of my best friends who unfortunately is a total armchair mountaineer is always talking about how he did an 11a at the gym. Booooooring!!! He always talks about getting out into the Sierras (he lives in SF) But when it comes down to it he always has an excuse and never goes. I don't think he's really having any fun. I only lead up to 5.9 trad and am damn proud of it! Following 10a/b is my total limit and it is not always fun. I am only interested in fun and am willing to put up with the not so fun stuff to get there. Rarely is the overall memory not fun. What is fun is cruising long routes in the mountains that are up to 5.8!!! I can attack these with total confidence and that gets me to plenty of steep stuff with exposure. I'm in the mountains, away from lifes pressures and complications. That is fun! Fortunately I am also an ice climber and so if a route has ice, I'm more than less attracted to it. I personally don't feel I'm missing out on anything by not climbing hard rock. Climbing is more than about the actual "climbing". It's the drive, the tunes, the beer, the funny cigarettes, the approach, the bushwacking, crossing rivers, getting off route, good weather, bad weather, being warm, being cold, a sunny summit, a raging snowstorm, scary rapells, walk offs, going solo, placing gear, managing the ropes.... the list goes on and on and on. Its also about the comradery with your partner(s). I quit buying the climbing mags a long time ago. Maybe those guys cranking 5.13 are having fun but to me its all shallow. As tempting as it is, I also don't feel the need to have the newest gear. There IS so much more than the numbers!

It sounds like these guys are confusing permanent snow fields with glaciers. However I'm not a geologist so I don't know the technical difference. I do know that when I lived in Utah that the lowest (latitude) permanent snow in the lower 48 was supposedly on Mt Timpenogos out of Heber City. Some one here should post and explain the difference between permanent snow fields and glaciers. I'm suspect that Rocky Mt. Park suddenly has 100 new "glaciers". If I were to take a stab at it, I'd say a glacier actually creeps down the mountain, regardless if the toe is advancing or receding. A permanent snow field just sits there. Also, it could be argued that global warming actually can cause more moisture to evaporate into the atmosphere and that the additional moisture must fall somewhere, most likely at the extremities of the planet...the higher elevations and the northern and southern latitudes. Therefore global warming CAN cause increased snowfall and glaciers to advance!

I made a new post which is now down the list called "court cases relevant to fee demo" You should read the articles from the Arizona Daily Sun (click on the links). From what I can tell, ol Larry had no right giving the guys in the van a ticket.

Is this a six or seven ft. bed? I have a Brahma for a seven ft. bed. It was on my Toyota which is now gone. Really good canopy too.

Yup! Bummer for me and you. Try the little Nickle, they always seem to have them. A hint: If you have sliding rear window, go for the canopy with a boot. It makes access to the back much easier...pet the dog, grab a beer... Also, it keeps the snow from piling up between the truck and canopy which blocks rear view mirror and fogs up the windows. Many sales people will tell you it will wear the paint but who cares. It's a toyota and all your paint will be messed up after 200k miles. Anyone else looking for a good canopy for a Toyota long bed? It has the boot!

For waterfall ice with a serious commitment, try Drury falls when conditions prevail. Classic start in a boat, some bushwacking, serious avalanche chute for approach, moderate lower falls, awesome position on upper falls, serious descent, especially in the dark! I hope to do it again soon!

I was in Ouray (you-ray) in 199? and it is a great place to climb. It is like "sport ice" climbing. The park is a slot canyon with an aquaduct along the rim. They tap in hoses and use shower heads to form ice all along the canyon. You cross a bridge and park and there are tons of climbs up and down river. The bridge is a great place to watch and choose your route. Most climbs you rap down and climb out. Some areas are lead only but most climbs can be done on top-belay. We did a lot of lowering/climb back up. This is fun on pillars not quite touched down. Furthest up river is the schoolroom where you can walk down into the canyon and top rope or lead. The angle is kicked back and thus the name schoolroom. As you go down river towards and past the bridge the climbs get steeper and longer. If you climb WI4 you'll be fine. Shit, you'll be cruising 5 in just a few days! If you don't have a partner, you can find one easily. The park is heavily climbed so all easy and moderate routes are almost ladders. In January maybe not so much. But the park is an awsome place to get in a lot of climbing and meet other climbers of your ability. It is avalanche free and I enjoyed climbing in "full" conditions one day. We stayed at the Victorian Inn, but you can save mega bucks by staying down in Ridgeway. Ouray is pretty dead in the winter and we found a much better bar down in Ridgeway. Even girls! There is some great climbing all around on natural falls too. But with these comes avalanche danger and south facing funky ice on some. Over towards Telluride is Ames Ice Hose and of course Bridalveil is in Telluride and now available for climbing again. It was a great road trip and you'll have lots of fun!

This was a post by Jon. I copied and pasted it because I didn't want to bring the whole thread back. Read the news paper articles from the Arizona Daily Sun. There's your ammo. If it's not enough, get Cavey to back you up in court! He'll tear them a new a-hole! Just got this email, looks like very good news for everyone. ########################################### Fee-Demo articles have begun popping up like wildflowers after a downpour and the news is all good. I've pasted short snips from three articles below and encourage people to read the entire articles online. My thanks to everyone involved in making this news happen and a very special thanks to those fee-demo protesters in Arizona who appeared in court yesterday and who, through their efforts, confirmed that the USFS MAY NOT ISSUE A FEE-DEMO TICKET TO AN UNATTENDED PARKED VEHICLE. Activists have been saying exactly this for years (www.wildwilderness.org/docs/tips.htm), but the truth never seemed to prevent the USFS from issung these inappropriate tickets. Perhaps the USFS will pay attention to US Magistrate Judge Stephen Verkamp and will finally stop issuing tickets they have NO authority to issue. All forest visitors must be presumed INNOCENT of fee-demo offenses unless the USFS can provide evidence to the contrary. That is a constitutional right .... and it's something the Forest Service has somehow forgotten. Scott PS... Senator Graham's Fee-Demo Bill S1011, would change the law such that forest visitors could be PRESUMED GUILTY UNTIL PROVED INNOCENT. S1011, if passed, would force Judge Verkamp to find future recipients of these same fee-demo tickets GUILTY as charged. If Senator Graham's bill passes, I hope its constitutionality will be immediately challenged!! ---- begin quoted ---- http://www.csmonitor.com/2001/0821/p1s2-ussc.html In the great outdoors, resistance to rising fees Opposition builds as more federal lands ask visitors to pay. By Hal Clifford | Special to The Christian Science Monitor OURAY, COLO. - Retiree John Montle has never protested anything in his life. Now the avid outdoorsman is waiting to appear in court for defying the federal government. Mr. Montle is part of a growing revolt over a controversial pay-to-play program being tested on federal lands nationwide. For years, the federal government has charged entrance fees to national parks - and even raised them recently - with relatively little complaint from the public. Now, however, several other federal agencies - including the US Forest Service, the Bureau of Land Management, and the US Fish and Wildlife Service - are levying user fees at a growing number of outdoor haunts that used to be free. <CONTINUES> ----------------- http://www.azdailysun.com/non_sec/nav_includes/story.cfm?storyID=23842 Red Rock pass system in trouble By LARRY HENDRICKS Sun Staff Reporter 08/21/2001 A federal magistrate in Flagstaff has dealt what appears to be a major setback to the ability of the Coconino National Forest to enforce its Red Rock Recreation Pass demonstration program. Before a packed U.S. District Court in Flagstaff Monday, three of four people who refused to pay fees associated with the program were not required to pay fines because they were not seen by rangers near vehicles that were cited. That means Forest Service rangers will have to spend more time trying to find the owners of vehicles illegally parked in the National Forest, said one Forest Service official. Previously, rangers had been ticketing vehicles parked at trailheads that did not display the Red Rock passes regardless of whether they made contact with the owners. <CONTINUES> --------------- http://www.azdailysun.com/non_sec/nav_includes/story.cfm?storyID=23871 Courtroom erupts in applause for verdict By LARRY HENDRICKS Sun Staff Reporter 08/21/2001 The four people who decided to take their cases to court on the recommendation of the AZ NoFee Coalition were Margaret Jackson, Ken R. Brinkel and David L. Kuhn of Sedona; and Evaline C. Derosa, of Truckee, Calif. According to citations issued to the four, only Kuhn was contacted by a Forest Service Ranger. The other three were not in the vicinity when their vehicles were cited. Two immediately had their cases dismissed by the U.S. Attorney's Office. The cases of Jackson and Brinkel were dismissed by Assistant U.S. Attorney Joseph Lodge just before the four trials were to begin because he said the cases were unlikely to result in convictions based upon U.S Attorney's Office guidelines <CONTINUES> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Scott Silver Wild Wilderness 248 NW Wilmington Ave. Bend, OR 97701 phone: 541-385-5261 e-mail: ssilver@wildwilderness.org Internet: http://www.wildwilderness.org

Did driving I-5 while rolling a joint and talking on the cell phone make the list?

I wonder if he would have had a hard time fitting that helmet in the crack and clipping it!

I'm with Eric. It's total BS that the officer wouldn't give his name or ID. What does he have to hide? Well I'll tell you. Maybe he's a poser. He sure was an asshole. With an attitude like that he should be a Seattle cop and take care of real crime, not a ranger harrasing the general public and singling out climbers for victimless crime. I've met a lot af rangers in my day because whenever I see one I go out of my way to talk to them. Most are cool and are out there because they love the wilderness too. I have to think they too think this fee shit is BS and would admit it "off the record". Ticketing the 2 guys in the van waiting for us was wrong. In fact I will say it was dicrimination against climbers. If Aunt Sally and Uncle Dick from Spokane on vacation in Leavenworth were sitting in their Lincoln Town Car waiting to meet someone, I don't think Larry would give them a ticket. These guys did not enter the wilderness and therefore didn't really "use" the parking lot. From what I can tell from the Arizona case, you have to park your car AND use the wilderness to go into the realm where you need a pass. If you don't have a pass, then the officer needs to prove you were in the wilderness (for non-religeous purposes) AND (not or) the car in the parking lot is uneqivocally yours. I can also say that while Larry harassed John about is "alledged" invalid pass, John was as polite as anyone could possibly be. He did not raise his voice or express anger. Larry came at him with vinegar and John stuck with the honey. Larry seems to be on a crusade and quite possibly this is not representative of what higher authorities in the Forest Service want. Larry harrassed climbers and harassment in any way, shape or form is unacceptable. I too will file a complaint. Eric, I need the beta on where to send it.

I think I may owe my colleagues an appology for abandoning them just as the festivities in the Snow Creek parking lot were heating up. My explanation is as follows. First, I have had my share of run in with the law and spent a few nights in jail. As an adult and looking back, it was an experience that I can honestly say I am glad to have had. But as a father and single income head of a household, I can ill afford the potential trouble I saw this event heading. That combined with the funny cigarettes in my pocket lead me to the conclusion it was time to leave. Second, I have a deal with my wife I call her as soon as possible upon exiting a climb and I knew, given the late hour, she was beginning to worry. Third, if I don't make the last ferry to Bainbridge, I get to bivy on the streets of Seattle. I hope you guys understand my early departure. Jay, I can't believe you are the one who ended up with a ticket since you parked on the road. Try to find out as soon as possible where your court case is. If necessary I will be a material witness. I think I was there long enough. This fee shit is really starting to piss me off and I will not stand by. I CAN make a difference. And I will help my friend Jay if I can. You too can help Jay. Go to the Update on Fee Demo thread and get the info and make a call. Eschew the dominant paradigm! Andy Sawyer

Mike, wednesdays can work for me sometimes and right now this one sounds feasible. But it could change between now and then. I'll put it on my calander and let you know in a few days if it's for sure. Darrington sounds close enough for a day. Matt P is really familiar with Darrington for beta. I've done dreamer but would do it again or anything else you want. Mike, you definitely get the culinary award for the ropefest. Thanks for the excellent beef, chicken and salmon! It was awesome!!

Ken, I sent you an email about a month ago but didn't hear back. I am very interested in a trip like this. How do you want to continue further communication? Have resume, will travel. David

Actually, I fully intend to follow up on this whole incident including filing a complaint. I personally feel some constitutional rights were violated last night. Being that I was not actually part of the party involved (I parked my car on the road), my complaint will be coming from someone who did not recieve a citation. I do need to know who the officer was. I don't know the name of the Ranger yet. Eric, some help???? Also, fill us in on the rest of the story after I left!

What an unfortunate end to an otherwise great day on Snow Creek Wall. Two parties headed up, Erik and Jay and I did Orbit and the Mike and John brothers did edge of space. The day couldn't have been less classic without the essential descent in darkness. Arriving at the parking lot, a Ranger was there waiting. Two other climbers just sitting in their van waiting for us (less than an hour)had already been issued a TICKET! (vs. being asked to either buy a pass or leave). John had a pass displayed in his truck, but further examination with a magnifying glass revealed it had not been punched or something like that? Apparantly the vendor needs to "activate" the ticket and because they forgot it was John's job to know this detail. Now he was facing a "fine" as well. This Ranger was beligerant and all the climbers attempted to be courteous, except maybe me. It was when he started checking ID, vehicle registrations and wilderness permits that I quietly slipped away. Next thing I potentially saw coming from this asshole was a vehicle or body search. If the forest service thinks this is the kind of enforcement that earns respect from the actual users of our public lands, they need to go back to school. If they are so intent on people paying a fee, why don't they just put a self register pay box in the parking lot just like the ones in Seattle. It is now obvious to me that the forest service is more focused on collecting fines than fees and your fee money is being consumed to fund that aggenda! It is ironic that with our government's national aggenda to spread freedom and democracy throughout the entire world, they are trying to take that away, right here at home, by making us pay to use our public lands and not allowing us to have an opinion about it. A hint to those who wish to avoid harassment. If you park in a parking lot where you need the pass and you don't have one (hopefully by choice), don't be seen in, around, next to, anywhere close to your vehicle if a Ranger is around. After climbing, when you get back to the lot, don't go straight to your car. Walk around and scope out for a Ranger. If you see one, definitely don't go to your vehicle. Arizona court precedent seems to indicate that they can try to ticket your car, but they really have to ticket you as a person. So they have to prove you were in the wilderness area AND that is your car in the parking lot!

Yeah, but I did get a CLOSE up view of the reg. north face too! Dirt is NOT the appropriate word! It was very doable and would have been our backup. In late August, you would not have had to venture onto rock at all. Just my humble opinion from someone who was there! Really!

Hey Wayne, do you recall 400 ft. of dirt on Buckner? No? I didn't think so. When did we do that? Last week in August right? In fact did we have to do much rock climbing? Naw, just a short little bit at the top! Can you really see all the route from Forbidden or vicinity. Not really. Oh, that's right, we did the couloir which definitely can't be seen unti you're over there. Anyway, I don't know jack shit so I'm gonna stop giving beta on this site. I'm just gonna shut up and climb!

Will, get on a bus or train to Seattle and I'll pick you up. I can wait because I'm not in a hurry today. Dave

Woah Cappy. Down boy! You're getting a little defensive and I don't think you should try to guess what I think about you because I really don't know what to think about you until I meet you. Just because I'm an opinionated person doesn't mean I'm an asshole. Maybe you can get to know me this weekend. Then if you still think I'm an asshole, well so be it and we won't have to ever climb together. I don't form opinions about people until I meet them. But if it helps, I wasn't speaking (or laughing) to you specifically. I'm sorry you interpreted "those" as yourself only. Try to understand that your comments along with others just struck a cord that set me off a little. Might go way back to my relationship with my mother or something, but I just don't respond well to being told I have a death wish. Part of climbing for me is believing I can do the routes I want at the time I want. Perhaps you are right and it is not in shape, but I'll have to stick my face in it before I decide that. This also goes back to the time when many were telling me Buckner was not in shape. It was. So peace bro and see you this weekend.

Mneagle, Now we're talkin! I just laugh at those who laugh at the mere suggestion that it's not crazy to think this is the season for a route like the ice cliff glacier. It's not crazy. Unless you've been on routes like this in the fall, shut up! They aren't death wishes. Closer examination will reveal when the hardmen first climed these routes. I had the opportunity to swill beer with Dave Mahre a long while back and he told me some good beta! Hard ice is fast and fast is safe! Well now I'm in tune with that. I'm just waiting for the right partner who thinks like me. Glad you noticed Wayne! R-U ready?

Still have room, a killer stereo with CD, a case of Labatts, 15 pack of Guiness and some funny looking cigarettes! I'll be leaving Friday pm and returning Sunday pm. I'm flexible to your schedule. I come thru downtown Seattle and can diverge anywhere reasonable to pick you up.

If you will be using these new crampons exclusively for vert ice because you have others for general mountaineering, I'd be sure to also check out Charlet Moser grade 8's or whatever the 2001 equivelant model is. Whole 'nother topic as to whether you want mono points or dual. I use duals so CM were far superior to Grivel because the points are closer together.