Smoker

Most of the drivel snipped "....group of 7 f_cking idiots, along with a few other couples. Moral of the story: should have left LATER." Well Shawn, I was also on the Tooth Sunday. It is one of the most crowded climbs there is in the summer. You didn't know that? If you were the team of 3 sheltering from the sun, you showed good style leading on 2 ropes and bringing up 2 at a time. It is too bad that you can't be as styling about your perception of other climbers. There was nothing but smooth raps and plenty of passing lanes for the other climbers out that day. You climbed that in your rock shoes, didn't you? Un-huh I thought so. Smoker

Not sure what the direct is, (since I don't have Nelsons book in front of me) but I was on the East ridge 3 or 4 years ago. It was early October and the short daylight hrs turned us back 2 pitches short of the top. There was fresh snow on the entire ridge. We did it in our heavy Richle mountain boots. There was some simul climbing done. The gendarms are fun to work through. We led the ridge both ways as the standard descent was iced up real good. Single set of nuts and cams to 3" with a few hexs thrown in. Lots of slings as there are good horns to lasso as you go by. We had a blast. Seemed like about 5.8 climbing but we ran out of time before the last fun pitch. Isn't the North Ridge more of a snow/mixed line? Smoker

Ok I spent a few minutes reading this entire thread. I find that there have been many good points made about preserving the nature of climbing. I believe that at the bottom of this issue is the underlying "belief" that there be some standard about when to bolt and when to back off. Obviously this distinction is fuzzy. There are folks that stand on both sides of the issue. I tend to believe that people that want to reduce a line's "risk" by bolting, chipping; gluing etc. is off base. At least when the line can be climbed by a competent climber that can make the grade. I think reducing a climb to my standard is wrong. The ethics that allow that in someone’s makeup demonstrate a lack of respect for the medium and for their fellow climbers, (respected or no). Maybe we all bear a bit of responsibility here. There is so much rock to climb in our state, and it is documented so well that I don’t have to establish new routes. There are so many to choose from it is often difficult to choose what to get on. I have been willing to let a few motivated climbers develop most of the routes published in guidebooks, (as have most of us). Yes, Tumwater Canyon, Icicle Cr, Index, WA. Pass are rich in history. Many top climbers have honed their skills and taken them further to more distant places than I. Still, when a new and "improved" guidebook comes out by said "developer" (s) we go and get the book. We tend to perpetuate the problem in this regard. We scream "grid bolting must stop!" but the developers say "We're doing the community a service, they are still buying our guide books.” And in a way they would be right. I am compelled to add my swill to the stink vat. Retro, Cavey and Will you took a stand for what you believe is right and while all your posturing is a bit boorish I support what you did. I don't believe that continued bolting unchecked is prudent. Perhaps a little harder work at speaking to the bolters would have been productive but WTF! You served notice and I am sure the respected bolters will pay closer attention to their actions in the future since bolts are a labor of love and $. I'll go on to say that I appreciate the efforts of the developers and their guide books. Without which I would not be as accomplished as I am today. I am disappointed that no-one that was responsible for the line in question weighed in with their thoughts, although we have heard from Victor and he should be accorded a bit of respect for his work in the past and willingness to speak now. This discussion has been hostile at best and there is no room for threats, against route "developers" or "restorers". I hope everyone will remember that there are higher authorities that will take steps to control what, where and when we can climb. None of us want that. Too the Respected PNW climbers, perhaps you can see fit to leave documented routes intact and stick to new lines? Retro, maybe you should compare the Dayton bar to the Burke bar. It is a beefy bar as well but I am not aware of how it compares in cost. E-mail me if you want any advice on altering the nail puller to fit bolts. As a tradesman I have a few ideas that might help. Peace-out to all Smoker

I climbed it about 5 years ago but I did it from the east after climbing thru the col and onto the Bostin glacier (barely). I didn't know that anyone had done the west face. It is pretty loose and chossy from the east. Smoker

E-mail me Alpine, and I'll give ya the poop S

Got back from the Pickets last week. First day we attempted Inspiration via the west ridge/gulley route. We got shut down in the gulley. It is by far the loosest climbing I have ever attempted. The gulley is listed as the standard descent by both Becky and Nelson (he even claims it to be moderately popular) but the webbing we found on the rap blocks at the top suggest otherwise. The newest webbing was low at the first 2 rap anchors, maybe 8 years old but at the top the webbing must have been 15 or more years old. So what I want to know is, has anyone here done the gulley approach? The climbing out of Terror glacier onto Degenhardt was fantastic. We finished via the east ridge with 1 pitch of rope work in the low 5th. The rest was loose 4th with outstanding exposure. The climbing was great. The weather was poor most days. Smoker

quote: Originally posted by snowman: What is the best way to deal with inexperienced teams?[/b] 1) stay off the standard lines 2) be the first on the route 3) Detour around (as you did) and pass quickly. S

Well Bronco, you and your team did a "good thing" I hope you guys feel some measure of satisfaction for putting up with "Dudd". On the other hand, if it had been me, I would have told "Dudd", "I don't tie in with folks I don't know, if your still here we will get you back to Muir on our way down." Folks like "Dudd" are all over the place anymore, it is not your's or any else's problem that they end up where they do. It would be a different story if he had needed rescue or assistance, but folks solo the DC all the time. If he really wanted up he could do the same or pick better partners to begin with (as it turns out it sounds like he ended up picking fine partners). I am certain the elevation had something to do with decisions made. Great job getting everyone up and down safely Rainier is never a small climb. Smoker

Nice TR Tod It's not suprising the snow was softer. It's been warmer temps. great time car to car with both summits. Sounds like you picked a better gully than we did. With that kind of power your about ready for a day trip up Rainier! Smoker

Well after reading all that I saw about Nelson's listed approach thru the Jack/Maude col. I had to investigate for myself. Sun 6/24 we reached the col. around 5:30. Temps were very cold, light breeze. The snow was hard styrofoam, in other words PERFECT!! We descended straight out of the col. using dagger pos. and front points about 2-300' then executed a descending traverse for about 1/2 mile for an overall drop of 4-500'. We didn't have an altimeter with us so use your head and follow your nose. The traverse followed the tops of cliff bands with zero room for error. Any missed step on the traverse is a serious mistake. Big air is waiting for any fall here. Softer snow would ease the traverse but make for crappy conditions on the N face proper. The ascent of the North face was sweet in the temps we encountered. The final 150-200' goes off at 60 degs. We had lots of stone fall as the sun warmed us near the finish. We left the rope in the pack and simul. soloed the route, moving out side by side for the final 60-deg pitch to avoid the obvious hazard of stacked climbing. The final 20-ft was solid water ice. We each had an axe and tool and had no difficulty getting solid sticks. (Unlike the gumbys behind us with 80cm axes and ski poles, they aborted into the choss pile that’s exposed at the finish and durn near bought the farm!) All in all a great route (with the proper tools) the crux being said traverse and or the 60-deg finish, you decide. Jim, the approach is viable. It is not for faint of heart, but what else should be expected on a more advanced line? Maybe only the descent elevation needs modification. It sure beats the hell out of the Icy Lakes/many moons approach. That's my .02 Smoker ps-what I want to know is how the hell do you get off that thing with any grace? [This message has been edited by Smoker (edited 06-25-2001).]

Colin, nice to see some usefull comments here for once. Did ya summit? S

Marmot in Belevue also rents rock shoes. Can't remember exactly how much under $12 I'm pretty sure. S

I did the glissade off of St Helens from Dogs head down almost 3000' (before it blew of course) Done the S. Spur glissade on Adams as well (not a very good glissade but long) The best I have done is down the Sitkum Glacier route on Glacier peak. We found the route in perfect shape and went from 20' below the summit right into high camp at 6,000' (4000' glissade) Asguard pass is worthy as is Colchuck col. For winter training laps I like the glissade off of Granite mtn down the avy shute Smoker

Viktor A word of thanks on the guide book. It has been the source of countless days of climbing. My partner and I both send our gratitude. As far as the drawings go, I have gotten used to the scale and find them as good or better than a photo. We have yet to lose any real amount of time on the rock id'ing routes. As far as the book falling apart mine did but I took it to work and drilled 3 holes along the binder and swaged cable to keep it together (cost me nothing) Smoker [This message has been edited by Smoker (edited 05-07-2001).]

quote: Originally posted by Dru: just think, if you had plastic boots you wouldn't have to wear supergaitors to keep your feet dry I have done all the Wa volcanoes in my Raichle Montagna's and never had a problem with them wetting out. I use standard gaitors as well. Have done alpine rock to 5.8 in them as well. Unfortunately they aren't made anymore. Any way uninsulated leather is the way to go for 3 season climbing. Good luck Smoker

This discussion is a bit disturbing to me, ( and I am sure a few folks). Who are we to say that climbing has no impact? None? Are we talking absolutes? Why are snowmachines singled out? They are loud? Certainly! So are airplanes and jets!(Ever been buzzed by an F-15 in a remote Cascades valley? THATS F*&%ING LOUD!) Why don't any of you have a problem with them? They polute? Certainly! So do we, (bears are not the only ones that shit in the woods!)There is a reason I need to filter water in the hills and it is not due to 'mobilers (generally, anyway). Horse camping, trail riding, snowmobiling,motorboating etc.... Everyone has a right to experiance the outdoors. We as climbers are regulated, so are everyone else. Do we break the rules? Sometimes... so do the others. Get over it. Folks have been leaving trash in the high country since we started showing up 200+ years ago. Do enough climbing and you'll have the opportunity to clean some of it up, (as a kid I came across a brass bed frame at 5000' near Emerald lake, been there a long time, no I didn't pack it out) The point is there is enough of the land for everyone to enjoy. Those who break the rules will get their karmic return. Yea it bothers me that molbilers have great range and can leave large amounts of crap in their wake. But they too will wisen up as their actions are examined more closely. Believe it or not, there has been a 12 pack or two packed into the high country on more than 1 occaision. off my box now Smoker My thoughts go out to the victems family and friends. [This message has been edited by Smoker (edited 04-13-2001).]

I had a weakened quad and ignored the warning signs for years, (knee cap would dislocate under stress) I dont recomend ignoring the signs. I ended up hyper-extending my knee and snapped the ACL. Very painful and a long recovery. See a specialist. Good luck Smoker

Couple of years back Climbing rag had a review of biv sacs. They were tested here in our back yard (Cascades) by some locals. At the time the best sacs zipped around the top of the head, as opposed to across the chest. I bought a LL Bean biv sac for just under 100 bucks. weighs 12 or 14 oz (can't remember exactly) and was the lightest at the time. G-tex upper water proof lower. I love it. Been out in the rain in it no problems yet. I have got used to having the material on/in my face. Also has bug netting that has been very useful against them nasties! Smoker

While I have paid in the past for the "right" to access public lands I am nearing the end of my tolerance as well. Here is a copy of my poorly written letter to our current Senators. Any input will be welcomed. (Also, anyone who wishes may copy,cut, snip etc for their own letter writing) Senator, I am writing to inform you of my disgust for the “Fee Demo” program implemented and spreading across the US. First of all, it is only one additional cost (or tax, as I see it) to attempt make up for budget cuts to our forest service lands. It does not go directly back into the maintenance of areas that I use and am charged directly to access. The trails that I travel are not maintained any more now than they have been in the past. And more access roads are up for closure now that the timber interests are through raping our public forests, at a cost to us taxpayers. Second, am I not already taxed federally? Doesn’t my tax dollars, or a portion of them, go to support our national forests and lands? Why am I being charged twice? I find it hard to explain how the Federal Govt. can have a 1.6 trillion tax surplus and still need to charge me to access public land that I, (we) already own. I can honestly say that I don’t care what the surface of Mars looks like when I am not “free” to examine the surface of my own “backyard”. Perhaps in the interests of “Fairness” you should consider charging welfare recipients for the “right” to access social programs as well. Finally, as a registered voter, I find it disheartening that while we as a people can pass laws that affect our communities and lands, our Federal judges (that you and your fellow Senators confirm) consistently strike down as “Unconstitutional” the laws that we wish to be governed by. Sure, we can organize, spend our time undoing the wrongs that your peers have implemented, but that is why you are in office. Your actions or lack thereof will be judged by more than just me. Civil disobedience is around the corner for many of us. While our voices are many and loud, our words are falling on deaf ears. Please do the “right” thing, and take an interest in our lands and in the “unfairness” that double taxation represents. We are all tired of paying “fees” to access public land that we already own, and are already taxed for. Thank you, for taking the time to hear my concerns. If you have the time and desire, you may respond directly to me. Sincerely,

Ya know, I believe that if I am gonna push my limits then I am gonna take a few falls. I havent had any that were terrible, meaning injurious to me or others. I have been able to really think about the terrain and when serious trama is present I have backed off, and when I have known that a fall will be pretty painless (relatively) I have been able to go for it. Usually, (70 percent of the time anyway) I send the route. But it really helps to boost my confidence when gear holds. S PS-at static point there was a gal at the anchor with my bro. When she heard the commotion she looked up, seeing me fall she said simply to Chris "Nice catch"

A couple of years ago I was on the 10b pitch of "on line" at static point. I was about 20ft above the second bolt, straight up, attempting to traverse to the third bolt. Man I was locked up! As I stood on nothing I knew that it was my time to ride and I didn't want to go. I focused on my feet as they began to slowly melt off. I finally forced myself desperately to move onto the traverse, knowing that I was going to blow! As I surfed back down the slab my partner had time to yard in line twice! Took a 40 footer. We didn't finish the route. It is waiting for me complete. Maybe this year? I have since learned that I need to traverse straight off the second bolt rather than up higher. A few weeping wounds is all I recieved for my effort (not too bad of a price in my book!) S

quote: Originally posted by philfort: What the hell is wrong with someone wanting help carrying their gear up to Camp Muir? You don't know what they're going to be doing up there - you don't know how old they are - you don't know their situation at all, so don't judge! Besides, climbers use porters in the Himalaya, and climbers get planes to haul their gear in Alaska. Is that also "pathetic"? What's pathetic is climbers with elitist attitudes like this. Phil Some folks couldn't survive w/o Big Bro! Couldn't agree more with you Phil Shame on you Bill-baiting never leads to anything good Smoker

Weird post- First off who really cares? Second plenty of climbers do laps to Muir just to log milage and stay in shape, why not make some spare change in the process?(Might make the wife more willing to let you go!) Folks experiance the hills differently, and climb for different reasons. Smoker