forrest_m

Just reread the initial post and thought I'd take a different stab at it - all the bolting discussion has been done to death... If I'm reading MysticNacho right, part of what he's saying is that he's tired of getting grief from "trad" climbers for only participating in "sport" climbing. I think this attitude comes in from 2 sources, in varying proportions: 1) It is the only way to maintain your dignity when some 14 year old kid - who wasn't even born when you started climbing - sends a route that you couldn't get to the second clip on. 2) A lot of it stems from frustration. It's like when one of your friends claims to know all about food, to really love eating, but who has only eaten italian food. It's not that italian is bad, we all like a good bowl of pasta, but it's hardly the whole of the culinary experience. To really know about food, you have to risk eating some things you might not like, not just continue ordering the same dish that you know is good, over and over and over... most "old school" climbers also sport climb, they have a wide enough experience to recognize that while it's fun, it's the pizza of the climbing world, tasty if done well, but only a small part of a spectrum that includes mexican, thai, indian, basque, japanese, ethiopian....

m10 to rambo comparison... half a pound heavier, that means 4 oz per boot, right? i think not enough to make any difference performance-wise, i'll bet you lose that much if you change from dual to mono points? i'd make my decision on which fit my boots better or try to demo both and see which ones i liked better. also, i have a personal CM fetish, since in 8 years of hard use, 3 tools and 2 crampons i have never broken anything, never had a pick come loose, never had a mechanical breakdown of any kind - and that counts for a lot with me.

early morning spire sits a little in front of the main dorado needle ridge, connected to it by a ridge sort of thing. We scrambled from the summit northwards to a saddle, then did a short rap on the north side (there were fixed slings) onto snow, then kept going around the top of a steep bowl and back *up* a steep snow gully up to the main dorado needle ridge. We turned right and followed the ridge south/west for perhaps 100 yards, untill the slope on the far side began to mellow a bit, then downclimbed straight down steep snow for one ropelength before beginning to traverse lower angle snow to the eldo/dorado needle col. This descent was a bit hairy, but much, much faster than any of the descents on the marble creek side, getting us to camp in around an hour from the summit.

Just used my brand new moser m-10s last week up in the canadian rockies. They rocked the house, but then I'm just now making the leap to vertical points from horizontals, so I'd probably be equally psysched by any of the top-end units. The m-10s allow an absurd number of adjustments: mono or dual, offset or even frontpoints, points long or short, points flat or canted downwards. Pretty much whatever configuration you like, they can do it.

its called a gi-gi

back on topic... i've done logan via easy pass/douglas glacier (i posted a trip report here that's probably still around), in may on skis, and i've hiked parts of that trail in the summer. might go in a day, but real long. lets see, hiking fast, you can get to easy pass in around 2 hours, another 2-3 downhill to get to the valley below the douglas (is that thunder creek? anyway, it's below thunder peak...) but then you gotta bushwack uphill quite a ways, and the valley is pretty swampy and foliated. in may on skis, we were *barely* able to navigate through the slide alder springing up around us, i imagine it's a real slog without snow covering it all. so lets say 4 hours of bushwacking to the basin below the douglas. moving pretty well on skis, we went from the basin to the summit in 4 hours, but came down probably a lot faster than you would be on foot, so lets say 6-7 hours round trip from the basin. bushwacking down probably not much faster than going up, say 3 hours, then 3-5 hours to get back up the trail to easy pass and back down. hmmm, let me add that up... well, at minimum 21 hours, so maybe it'd go. a lot of elevation gain and some bushwacking. The trail times might be a bit optimistic, esp. towards the end of the day. I guess the only way to know it it'd go is to try it, eh? Good luck and post a report (telling us how the unplanned bivy went...) when you get back.

haven't climbed there a lot, but i can highly recommend 2 memorable climbs: the second pitch of Local Knowledge is one of the coolest 5.9s in the state, and the name of Pure Joy says it all. (10c fingers) both at royal columns

Well, the form I've got (copied from the mountaineers MOFA book) has spaces for a bunch of info that in an emergency you might forget to record but that emergency crews would like to know - heart rate, breathing, a bunch of other stuff. Plus you can write down time, location etc - that way you could, for example, pass the sheet off to someone you meet on the trail and stay with your buddy, etc. Last year, a friend of mine was a witness to a multiple-injury accident just below Headlee pass; he and several others were doing first aid, and flagged down another passerby to go get help. However, the guy didn't get the number of victems right, so when the helo arrived, there wasn't enough space for all the injured, and everyone else had an epic night assisting the (least) injured dude down to the trailhead. Ever play that game telephone? It's really easy for information to get distorted, especially in a high-stress situation... writing it down can help.

This came up on another topic, and I'm curious... For a long time, I carried no first aid kit at all, assuming I could improvise whatever I needed. Later experience (mostly vicarious, thankfully) made me decide that this was self deception, and I now carry a very minimal first aid kit most of the time. We all joke about the 10 essentials (or 50 or 1), but I'd like to know what other people consider the minimum acceptable emergency gear. Here's what I carry - - 2 maxi-pads for blood absorption - Half a roll of athletic tape - Some band aids and 4x4 sterile bandages - Painkillers (ibuprofin, but i'd like to supplement with a couple percoset or something similarly strong for last resort) - A stubby pencil and one o' them accident report forms plus, I also usually have a couple of those chemical handwarmers and a small lighter.

Well, i'm kidding about keeping score (now a deck of cards is *really* unnecessary weight)and bragging... but what are you going to do when you meet the future mrs. caveman on some alpine climb and she offers you her phone number?

a stubby pencil an a sheet of paper are a good addition to even the lightest first aid kit. a MOFA or WFR type course will instill you with the importance of writing down pertinent info when you go for help. weighs nothing, plus it ensures that can you brag in the summit register about your new record time on the route and keep accurate score when you play card games on storm days ;-)

"what has occured" or more colloquially, "what happened?"

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Hard to believe this was still unclimbed in 2001! More pictures and a topo: http://www.saarch.com/forrest/hardyfull.htm [This message has been edited by forrest_m (edited 08-22-2001).]

i will post some photos and a topo later this week

allthumbs - well, there's the problem... you see i think my biggest problem with the program is the idea that you can NEVER use public lands without paying. i don't mind there being fees for certain special areas - national parks - or for areas where overcrowding is a big issue, or where some services are being provided - sno parks, NF campgrounds. But I strongly object to the idea that all areas are fee areas. But your question got me thinking, what if the forest service license an independant group to sell the passes. With some sort of transparent decision making process, this group would then directly spend the money on maintenance? Power to local authorities, kind of a Republican solution... Actually, I would prefer that they just allocate more public money to trail maintenance. It's a public resource. They currently lose huge amounts of money on the timber sales. If they tightened up their finances, it would remove a public subsidy of private profits and the net FS budget would remain the same. As to the other comments - didn't you see the letter above? It is one of dozens I have sent. You suggest being "involved in the conservation effort," well, this is what involvement looks like. Unfortunately, the typical lobbying groups for this sort of thing (sierra club, et. al.) and I are not in agreement on this issue. I realize that my letters alone are not going to turn things around, but it is what I personally can do, so I do it. There is still a reason not to participate: the USFS uses participation as evidence of public support - but they fine you if you aren't in "support" of the program. [This message has been edited by forrest_m (edited 08-10-2001).]

allthumbs - well, yeah, but there's more at stake than a $15 or $30 sticker - the fee program is a misguided attempt to distract us from larger issues on which their policy is fucked up, i.e. timber and mining. so fighting this is actually a strategic position in that larger fight. I have been accused of being selfish or tightfisted, but really, if it were just a few bucks, I wouldn't care. (Hell, if the money actually went to conservation I'd have a lot less of a problem paying it) But the user fee program is the fightable tip of a much larger, more sinister iceberg. no vinegar, just pissed

Lambone - I am not an expert.. I was introduced to the system when we got a warning for a pass we didn't know we needed. Mildly irate, I began doing my own research and reading everything I could about the issue, and became more and more outraged by what I learned. I cannot emphasize enough the importance of doing your own research and coming to your own conclusions about this and not accepting at face value that the USFS says about it. I understand your position - I just don't agree. I have made an effort to send letters to everyone I can think of regarding this issue. Following is the text of one of those letters which summarizes my position. If you would like, I can email you a very good essay by David Dittrich that provides a lot of the statistical backup and sources for this information. (It's a bit long to post in a thread.) <begin letter> Dear Sir, I am writing to express my strong opposition to the Forest Service “Demonstration Fee Program,” and to voice support for a significant increase in Forest Service (USFS) recreation budgets. Please include this letter in the record for Public Witness Testimony on April 16, 2001. The current fee program is misguided, both in the details of its current implementation and in the underlying idea that one cannot use public lands – in any form – without paying some sort of fee. I believe that there is a place for user fees: I have purchased “Sno-park” passes annually for ten years and I regularly pay the fee to use Forest Service campgrounds. However, the most basic right to walk on public lands should be available to all citizens free of charge. The finances of the USFS are widely recognized as being in bad shape. The agency is under great pressure to become less wasteful – and to do so in a visible way. However, rather than undertake serious reform in its finances – such as the hundreds of millions of dollars the USFS has lost and continues to lose on timber sales – they have instead focused on such minor income streams such as Recreational Use Fees to try to demonstrate to Congress that they are cleaning up their act. Since it is the only action they are taking, they are eager to show that it is a success, even if this means stifling public outcry through deceptive statements and outright untruths. The Forest Service’s conduct has been disingenuous at best. In dealing with Congress, the USFS has used revenues from the fee demo program as evidence that they are saving money by passing costs directly to the user. But in their marketing campaign to attract public support for the program, the USFS claims that fees will result in increased funding for maintenance and construction of trails and parking facilities. The truth is closer to the former. Money from the fee program goes into the General Fund, and no overall increase in recreation funds has materialized since the initiation of the program. Yet the USFS knows that they must prevent a public outcry if the “demonstration” program is to be considered a success. Thus signs claiming that “fees pay for this trail” continue to appear at trailheads throughout the country. Particularly grievous is the process by which the fee demo program was introduced: USFS literature claims that the “demonstration” in “fee demonstration program” is to determine the level of public support for the concept of direct user fees. The existence of a hefty fine for non-payment of the fee makes this data highly suspect. Nevertheless, the USFS continues to use these statistics as “evidence” of widespread public acceptance of the program. Please defend the rights of all Americans to make the simplest uses of public lands without additional fees. We already own these lands, and the maintenance of basic access to them is a legitimate priority for government spending; in fact, such spending is essential to the goal of good stewardship. <end letter>

lambone - all i can say is that if you believe that the money is going to trail improvement just because that's what the forest service tells you, then you probably also believe that mcdonalds food is healthy because they put "grilled" in the name of the sandwich. i will try to find the link to the discussion we had about this a few months back. the tip of the iceberg is that the money goes directly into the general fund and is NOT earmarked specifically for trail maintainance or anything. essentially, by buying the pass, you are subsidizing the vast amounts of money that the FS loses on timber sales. try this, there are also a bunch of links to sources outside CC.com for more info: http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000288.html [This message has been edited by forrest_m (edited 08-10-2001).]

burgundy col is way faster. i like to get the suffering over quick. by this time of year, there is no water between the river and the col, but past the col you are on snow. someone gave some detailed beta on the approach not long ago: http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000152.html [This message has been edited by forrest_m (edited 08-10-2001).]

So I just picked up the new Mclane SW BC guidebook, and it struck me (not for the first time) how much better canadian climbing guides are. Across the board - the SW BC guide, Dougherty's Rockies guide, the various recent Squamish guides, even the Skaha guidebook for chrissake, have better photos (more readable 'cause they're on glossy paper), better approach info, handy pocket size, rounded corners for stickin' the thing in your pack. What gives?

some descent notes: from the far end of the short summit block (from where you come up), there is an obvious rap station. In sept. there was still a little block of stubborn snow here, the last water until the road at the bottom! Make 1 single rope rap to another station. The second rap is for convenience, you could scramble down if you wanted. From there, follow the gully down several hundred feet. As you go down, look for small cairn on the upper rim of the gully, skier's right. Traverse out to the cairn, once you get out of the gully, the trail is obvious. If you hit more rap slings, you have gone too far - climb back up and find the cairn. The rap slings are there to sucker you into repeating the descent epic of those who have come before you. The trail crosses several steep scree basins with a little bit of easy downclimbing and eventually leads you to some meadows where you can pick up the real trail. It is marked with orange diamonds nailed to trees, and is steep, dusty and dry, but easy to follow. Good luck.

You're asking about a climber going back and climbing a hard route a second time, not making a repeat of a difficult route established by someone else, right? I would say that the answer is yes and no... for routes that were at the time and still are at my limit, I have no desire to go back and climb them again. It's hard enough to become psychologically ready to do these things once, I'd rather save my stress for something new. However, there is something to be said for going back to a route that challenged you in the past with the perspective of greater experience. (Assuming of course, that the route is good enough to be worth climbing again.) I did the full north ridge of stuart pretty early in my climbing career, my first grade IV alpine route, and my memory of it was always colored by the anxiety I felt at the time. I remember wondering if we would be able to do it at all. Not long ago, I climbed it in a day car to car. Tiring, but hardly the mini-epic I remembered. An related question might be: how many times are you willing to go back up on a hard route that you have retreated from? It can be mentally harder to get back on the horse that threw you...

Here's a story with some more details. http://www.adn.com/alaska/story/643572p-687210c.html and some more details on the rescue: http://www.couloirgraphics.com/AMM/index.cfm?fa=postings&cat1=yes&MainCatID=1&cat14=yes&SubCatID=14&ContentID=116&viewpost=2 [This message has been edited by forrest_m (edited 08-03-2001).]

So I finally got down to the msr factory store to update my old whisperlite with a shakerjet (yeah, that's me, right on the cutting edge of technology). They did a very nice job, $25 for a new fuel rod, generator, jet and flame spreading rings. What's really cool, though, is that they somehow cleaned the whole rig so that it looks brand spankin' new. They only had it behind the counter for maybe 5 minutes, but it is shiny and clean like it hasn't been since it first came out of the box. I clean my stoves regularly, but I've never been able to achieve anything like this level of factory-freshness. What I want to know is WHAT DID THEY USE TO CLEAN IT AND WHERE CAN I GET SOME? Any ideas? (they also gave it back to me in a new stuff sack with new windscreen/reflector. not really necessary but i thought it was a classy touch)