tvashtarkatena

After reading this thread, and harkening back to my own halcyon days of adolescent summer, I've concluded that high school students aren't really good for much other than keeping the auto-body and auto insurance industries solvent. They eat like rhinos, produce nothing but dirty dishes and the occasional unwanted baby, and don't make very good company in general. They do grow fast, however, so I say, rather than waste all this money trying to educate them, let's eat them.

Hey, I can see my house.

9) Unlike you.

8) Did you take your meds today? They appear to be undisturbed today.

THere are several concerns when giving the government any type of personal information: 1) What will they do with it? Can they sell it or give it away, say, to private corporations? Share it with other nation to restrict future travel? Use it to hinder or prevent domestic travel, such as flying? Use it to deny employment or benefits? 2) How do they safeguard it? Are enough safeguards in place to prevent identity theft or misuse? 3) When will the information be removed (say, upon acquital), or, once it's there, is it there forever? How can an individual be sure removal actually occurs? 4) What are the possibilities of error? Is the government using the latest database, verification, and security technologies and practices, are is it just a bunch of technically illiterate bureaucrats working on poorly funded aging crap built by the lowest bidder? 5) How can the individual be sure that the information will not be used to harrass, chill, or prevent the political or otherwise legal activities of an individual or group? 6) Is there a less invasive, risky, or expensive way for the government to achieve the same practical end? 7) Is the government really out to get you? Has the government finally come for you, your town, your family, your religion, your hunting license? Does this make you want to kill, kill, kill, and keep killing?

Quick: What's the capitol of North Dakota?

Man, you are dense. He seems right on the money to me. There's a difference between 'predicting the obvious outcome' of a stupid fucking project and 'rooting for failure' of a worthy endeavor. But, really, this is a one sided spat. I mean, who is arguing that Iraq was a good idea at this point?

Bill Belcourt of BD was gracious enough to invite me to call him via PM, so I took him up on his offer today. Hopefully, I won't mangle the essence of our discussion too much. Per my discussion with Bill, pick height doesn't reduce pick performance as much as pick thickness. Taller and thicker picks are more durable (I=thickness*height^2/12), but picks experience the most work hardening from being bent sideways (when the pick is twisted, as in during a difficult removal), so in that axis I=height*thickness^2/12), i.e., thickness is the most important dimension both for durability and performance. Thick picks shatter hard ice, but last longer. Climbers tend to favor better performance over durability. The laser is both thinner and slightly not as high at the typical breakage point (tooth 4 to 5) as the Cascade. I'll have to get my hands on one to measure it and calculate the differences in I, however. That's one factor. Bill relayed that in BD's experience, picks are fatigued primarily during the twisting involved in removal, and break during actual removal. He also suspects that a minority of climbers break most of the picks. The old 80/20 rule. I asked him what the profile of a pick abusing climber is. His answer was a strong ice climber who can bury a tool over and over without tiring (and how must twist and fatigue it during removal). Curved shafts increase the reefing required to remove picks. He also relayed that mixed climbers tend to trash and replace picks often enough so as not to break them as much. The most picks he's ever seen a single climber break is 5. BD has attempted to reduce the tendency to overdrive picks by lightening their tool heads. Nearly all pick breakages start with cracks at one of the bottom teeth, so nicks in the top bevel probably don't matter as much. Bill wants to do more testing on reduced bevel versions of the Laser to see if BD can increase durability without sacrificing performance. The Cascade pick has much less of a top bevel, but sticks fine, for example. We talked a lot about bottom teeth. BD designs their teeth for stability and ease of removal primarily. Too shallow teeth result in unstable sticks that pop out without warning. Teeth that are too many, too deep, or too sharp are too difficult to remove. The Cascade pick is bead blasted, which knocks off tooth sharpness a bit. BD has played with changing their teeth a bit to prolong pick life, but it only seems to give the pick 20 or 30 more pitches worth. BD hasn't tested for a minimum tooth radius required to maintain durability because they've focused more on ease of removal/stability. I wonder if a shallower 4th tooth (the most common breakage point) might increase durability a hair without degrading performance noticeably. Other issues regarding durability: Fatigue life/testing: The Cascade pick seems to be softer (which may lead to a longer fatigue life). Anyone who uses them can attest that you need to sharpen those puppies often. Bill did limited fatigue testing on a small sample (3 of each) using the CE standards on the Laser and Cascade picks and came up with a 20% longer life for the Cascade, but more testing would be required to make this statistically conclusive. In any case, B rated picks like the Cascade exhibit 8 to 10,000 cycles under the CE test before breaking. I suppose you can do a rough calculation of how many times you twist the shit out of your pick per pitch and figure out how often you need to change them out if you really wanted to geek out on it. According to Bill, most climbers out there change picks when the first tooth has been filed off or when the pick breaks. He discussed the idea of putting a wear mark on picks, similar to wear bars on tires. Market share/installed base: We also discuss the installed base (how many Cascade versus BD picks are out there). Although BD enjoys roughly a 2x market share advantage over Petzl today, that is a snapshot which underrepresents the cumulative number of picks out versus Petzl there since BD's first interchangeable X15 pick was sold. The numbers, however, are not readily available and would require a fair bit of work to come up with. Manufacturing: BD tried water jetting, laser cutting, and even hot forging their picks, and saw no significant difference in durability (the hot forged picks actually lasted slightly less long). They anneal the parts to reduce the hardness of the HAZ and any stress concentration that would be caused by same, then they heat treat. BD laser cuts its own picks (and crampons and a bunch of other stuff), so they have control over that process. If anything, hot forging (Grivel's process...Petzl cold forges) might add stress concentrations by changing the very straight, regular grain structure of BD's raw plate stock. Tool Geometry: The pick angles of the Cobra and Quark are similar enough that this is probably not a significant factor regarding durability. In general, fatigue failures begin as microcracks at the point of failure (maximum stress), which propogate with each cycle. When the overall geometry is reduced to a certain critical point, the remaining pick fails catastrophically under load. This is generally how a ductile material like steel subjected to repeated stress fails. Recommendations to avoid pick breakage (These should be pretty obvious): 1) keep your picks sharp, climb with thin picks in hard ice, and don't overdrive them. 2) Don't dry tool and climb ice on the same picks if you can avoid it. Use thicker picks for mixed if you can afford it. 3) Choke up on your tool to aid removal of a stuck pick rather than reef from below if possible. Easier said than done sometimes. 4) Get new picks periodically based on your frequency of climbing, not just when they're an inch shorter than new. Questions Bill would like to resolve: Can BD get away with a reduced top bevel without sacrificing performance? What is the real difference in cycle life between BD and Petzl? What is the real statistical breakage rate differences between same given differences in the quantity of installed base, geometry, and steel hardness?

I did this type of line up in my first comparison, but that was in error; I scaled the Quark larger than the BD to make the two points line up. Both points (the grip and the pick tip) don't line up exactly when scaled equally because of differences in tool geometry. My second comparison: coincident grips, pick tips aligned vertically (as on an ice surface) is the correct one.

Apparently you have an emotional issue with being disagreed with, even on a technical level. In keeping with the exploratory spirit of this discussion, however, you might spare the rest of us your tantrums and take those emotional issues to Spray where they belong. I'm going to stay in this discussion, so you might as well find a way to continue participating without losing your composure.

McCain is pretty much a straight shooter. So far, what he's offered is "more of the same" royal clusterfuck policies from the past eight years. He's been pretty up front about that. And thats why he's going to lose in a landslide. IMO, of course.

Fuck off, bitch! Actually, you are correct. I should have used the term 'federal offense' (which are usually felonies) rather than 'felony'.

Silence doesn't imply consent, although it may imply politeness. As for common knowledge; if the reasons for breaking picks were so well known we wouldn't be having this discussion, would we? Both pics are scaled; both are real. I actually used your pic to scale mine, so they are same same. Your pic doesn't line up the hand grips, so it doesn't compare apples to apples to indicate strike/pick angle. There are only two positional elements a climber directly controls during tool placement: grip location and pick (strike) location (and orientation). If you want to compare the tool geometry of various tools for climbing a vertical surface, you've got to superimpose the grip position and line up the pick points on a vertical line. Line up your tools accordingly, check it out, and get back to us with data rather than comments. Just sayin....

This is a very serious question with some disturbing trends and answers. The number of transgressions which constitute a felony has exploded in recent decades, thanks to the War on Drugs, and to a lesser extent to the War on Terror. The long term consequences of having a felony conviction have also increased dramatically during the same period. Any time you here the phrase "crime bill" in congress, watch out.

I love ragging on teachers during sport. And I agree wholeheartedly that they deserve not a penny more. They'd just spend it on whiskey and cigarettes.

I wouldn't sample my DNA if I were them. It'll just grow into a whole new Tvashtarkatena.

Finally, a society that has the balls to enforce true religious tolerance. This is exactly the kind of thing that will move mankind forward into a more peaceful future.

Love the new banner ad.

I scaled the tools to your photo, and lined up the shafts so that a) the picks strike on the same vertical (ice) line and b) the grip positions are lined up, and got this: I don't have a Cobra so try it with your two tools in this configuration and see if you get the same result.

I'm not, and haven't, but you just did. I'm just looking for some analytical rigor regarding any conclusions that are made here. Anything wrong with that?

No, I'm not a Petzl rep, nor do I regularly climb with Will Gadd, as you do. Despite your indignation at being disagreed with, this thread's not about Tvash and Dane. All the major companies make good tools. I'm just trying to point out that most of your conclusions regarding the root causes of the breakage issue seem faulty and, in some cases, wide of the logical mark. It doesn't help that you write off the field experience of most the posters here. Until now, you've passed these personal and likely flawed conclusions off as statements of fact. This is a technical discussion. If you do disagree, back it up with data and analysis rather than another self affirmation of your oft stated expertise. Or you can drop some more names from Rock and Ice, if you wish. I'd say pick breakage is one of those issues which, ummm, matters, so finding a root cause is of importance to anyone using these tools. I look forward to the Boeing guy's response from his metals expert; it will be welcome input from someone who actually knows what their talking about on this particular subject.

suk my sand worm, m'fuckah

*Your kids'll be paying for it. I don't have any, so I say let's fucking party!

"Vote for me and I'll give you sum free shit*" rocks.

You've superimposed where the tool head is: that doesn't matter. You've got the two tools rotated at different angles of use. I've superimposed these two points (tip point/grip rest) at the same scale, thus orienting the tools the way they'd be used equally. The strike/pick angle of these two tools is actually very similar.